• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Siddyus

Immortalis
92 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
223
42
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
They should just limit coalitions to as far as the neighbor of your neighbor from whom you've taken lands from or if their AE is at least 100-150. Its kinda stupid that for example The Mamluks would join a coalition against me when I was playing as Ming when I took the lands of Manchuria, they are already outraged with only 20 or so AE.

If the current coalition mechanics were indeed historical, how in the world did the Mongols ever expand so far? OE/coring mechanic at least is plausible since the Mongols didn't have enough time to core, they collapsed in under a century, not to mention their succession wars as well.

I personally dislike vassal feeding/diplo-annex etc. I like to do the good ol ways of expansion... through domination and conquest.
 

Ruanek

General
122 Badges
Jan 30, 2011
1.780
10
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • 500k Club
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
They should just limit coalitions to as far as the neighbor of your neighbor from whom you've taken lands from or if their AE is at least 100-150. Its kinda stupid that for example The Mamluks would join a coalition against me when I was playing as Ming when I took the lands of Manchuria, they are already outraged with only 20 or so AE.

If the current coalition mechanics were indeed historical, how in the world did the Mongols ever expand so far? OE/coring mechanic at least is plausible since the Mongols didn't have enough time to core, they collapsed in under a century, not to mention their succession wars as well.

I personally dislike vassal feeding/diplo-annex etc. I like to do the good ol ways of expansion... through domination and conquest.

Part of the issue is it's impossible to create a game that appropriately models both Mongol expansion and the difficulties Britain had in Ireland with the same overextension. There are always going to be exceptions. The goal is to create a system that works reasonably well for the majority of nations for most of the time period. (And Mongol expansion is out of the time period, anyway.)
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Use this one trick discovered by a housewife to grow your EU4 empire that doctor's don't want you to know about. Click Here!!
 

hauptman

General
9 Badges
Apr 18, 2008
2.395
192
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Part of the issue is it's impossible to create a game that appropriately models both Mongol expansion and the difficulties Britain had in Ireland with the same overextension. There are always going to be exceptions. The goal is to create a system that works reasonably well for the majority of nations for most of the time period. (And Mongol expansion is out of the time period, anyway.)

The mongols ruled over a giant wasteland of burnt cities, or willing vassals (so they too wouldnt be slaughtered)... The english were a bit more 'civilized' and only tried killing off the populace by not sending untainted potatoes.

So unluess you want to add a dynamic like romeTW1's population/squalor which allows you to exterminate huge numbers of peasants... we are going to have to use this system.
 

Ruanek

General
122 Badges
Jan 30, 2011
1.780
10
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • 500k Club
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
The mongols ruled over a giant wasteland of burnt cities, or willing vassals (so they too wouldnt be slaughtered)... The english were a bit more 'civilized' and only tried killing off the populace by not sending untainted potatoes.

So unluess you want to add a dynamic like romeTW1's population/squalor which allows you to exterminate huge numbers of peasants... we are going to have to use this system.

I agree completely. I was just arguing that we can't account for every exception in history.
 

roman566

Lt. General
53 Badges
Aug 16, 2008
1.209
163
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Darkest Hour
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Don't forget to pay some more of it to displace said people and replace them with your own. Wiping out entire cultures in a decade...
It's not historical but it works as a game mechanic. People here tend to forget you're not playing history, you're playing a game about history.
What next? Tanks and battleships in 17th century? Using your argument it will be fine - it's a game about history, it doesn't have to be historical.
 

DukeDayve

Eater of Garlic
51 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
3.268
3.801
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
I really dont get the gamey part about vassal feeding.

Would you still sell land to your vassals if it didn't get you a free core later on?

Of course not. That's the gamey bit. You're exploiting the mechanics to get something which otherwise costs quite a lot of time and admin points... for free.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Would you still sell land to your vassals if it didn't get you a free core later on?

Of course not. That's the gamey bit. You're exploiting the mechanics to get something which otherwise costs quite a lot of time and admin points... for free.

I would. It's a perfectly competitive strategy, which I assume you've never actually tried. See signature for how far vassals can really be taken.
 

Ruanek

General
122 Badges
Jan 30, 2011
1.780
10
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • 500k Club
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
I would. It's a perfectly competitive strategy, which I assume you've never actually tried. See signature for how far vassals can really be taken.

I think the issue is that generally when people feed vassals it's completely for the purpose of eventual annextion without administrative cost. No one's arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to give land to vassals at all.
 

Charles Louis

Major
48 Badges
Jan 30, 2005
757
5
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
It's not historical but it works as a game mechanic. People here tend to forget you're not playing history, you're playing a game about history.

What's the point of playing a game in a specific time period with specific historical actors if I'm not getting historicity? If its just a game it should have its own imagined setting.
 

zijistark

HIP Lead
58 Badges
Jan 29, 2013
5.118
3.074
zijistark.com
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
I would. It's a perfectly competitive strategy, which I assume you've never actually tried. See signature for how far vassals can really be taken.
I'm not sure whether you're being facetious when you reference that screenshot of all things as support for selling land to vassals to without the intention to annex them (until that whole mass, instant annex that incurs no AE or negative relations with vassals-- they all go up in a simultaneous puff of smoke after all-- that can be initiated and completed, while paused, at any point once you've reached a critical threshold that arrives before all the vassals do anyway, but nevermind about that).

Or maybe you're just saying, hey, there's other ways to be gamey with regard to vassalization than textbook vassal feeding, limited to a few theoretical nations in the HRE, exploiting their own exclusive game mechanic which very roughly models both a) the highlights of feudalism placed into a nationalist era with zero of its downsides, and b) infinitely scalable diplomatic relations.

I admit, it's a more maniacal and therefore fun way to dominate the world than direct vassal release/feed/annex, though. After all, you also get the extra release/annex/release [for IA] layer of amusement. And there's the ant-farm of worker nations to watch trample your enemies for you as if you were the Pope himself calling crusades in from conference calls in Bali.
 

unmerged(804580)

Lt. General
3 Badges
Sep 10, 2013
1.309
3
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I posted a Japan with most of East Asia a while ago. But in the mean time I hardly ever had a coalition. Nothing global, just minor ones here and there. The key is not to take territory directly.

I declared at least 12 or so wars against Ming. Ming had engulfed Manchus in a PU back then. I took just two provinces, ones with Xi and Manchu cores in the first war. Release Xi and Manchu, and declare again when the truce is over. Return cores to Xi and Manchu, take just two more with Shun and Zhou cores. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Eventually Ming disappears since ALL of Ming's territory is returnable, and I don't take aggressive expansion for returning cores to my vassals.

It gets easier as you play more, and preferrably in different regions. Because then you'd practically know where nations and their dormant cores exist. I usually take a slice off, release vassal and return, but simply releasing a big chunk (say, Kazakhs from the Uzbeks), vassalizing the original country and returning their cores back works better in the late game when the core expiration begins.

Further, once you're getting stinking big, you can use your tax base and diplomatic reputation taken from ideas to diplovassalize smaller nations in the same religious group. In that Japan screenshot, I was Shi'ite. I vassalized and annexed a bunch of Muslim nations in India and the Middle East, with very little direct conquest in the region. Since the AE scales with size, if I decided to take territories directly, even taking a couple of provines could have incurred a coalition against me.

Would you still sell land to your vassals if it didn't get you a free core later on?

Of course not. That's the gamey bit. You're exploiting the mechanics to get something which otherwise costs quite a lot of time and admin points... for free.

I wouldn't call the dev acknowledged mean of expansion as an exploit. Gaining cores is what is meant to be: some of the built-in things like Austria's PU missions against Bohemia and Hungary, Poland's vassalization mission against the Teutonic Order, and the Iberian Wedding are all based on the idea that you gain cores on the annexed/integrated subject nations. It's just the way this game is played.

Selling lands to vassals is what AI does as well. Seriously. I was playing Perm, and my overlord Muscovy sold me a province from Kazan. I took it, started coring it, and soon after Muscovy sent me a gift and started annexation process. As a player I can stop the annexations any time I wanted, but still I thought it was cool that the AI does what a player does.

zdT7NEa.png

"Muscovy offers us the province Perm for the sum of 50 ducats. Do you accept?"

See, Muscovy can still core this. A landlocked province connected by a vassal territory can be cored - I'm sure that is the case since I did that just last night. Muscovy simply wants to reduce overextension, and they probably don't want too many Sunni provinces around. Seeing that the province has the same culture as my primary (Uralic), and since I already put a claim on it, Muscovy is feeding me.

Likewise, sending gifts and offering vassalization is not restricted to humans either. The AI does this. Austria just goes around diplovassalizing all over the HRE, but it can happen even to a human:

KrJHQ5V.png

"Zhou offers us to become their vassal. When we accept, we become their protectorate. In return we must give 50% of our income, and we are obliged enter alliance only with them."

The AI doesn't do this as extensively as humans, but my point: if AI does it, it's not an exploit. If there is any problem with "vassal feeding", it's a fundamental design problem, not the users exploiting the game mechanics. You just don't see these kinds of stuff if you're playing big nations, but try playing as a vassal. You'll see the AIs are pretty smart and humanlike in their strategies. After seeing these kinds of stuff being done to me, I can't buy any arguments that doing these things are "gamey exploits" at all.
 
Last edited:

Pornek

Field Marshal
65 Badges
Aug 27, 2013
2.642
917
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
Would you still sell land to your vassals if it didn't get you a free core later on?

Of course not. That's the gamey bit. You're exploiting the mechanics to get something which otherwise costs quite a lot of time and admin points... for free.

But the current situation is a different one. Right now you do get cores so why is it gamey to use it?

A gamey mechanic would be releasing OPM to reduce AE.
 

infidel88

Sergeant
Dec 15, 2013
53
0
Problem is that feeding vassals is high reward no risk. Instead of going 50/50.

Honestly, if you would change Prussia to Dwarves, France to Elves, Ireland to Hobbits, Russia to Mordor, HRE to Rohan and Ottomans to Gondor, would the game change a lot? There isnt much history in this historic game now :/
 

Great One

Colonel
1 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
1.048
2
  • Europa Universalis IV
They should just limit coalitions to as far as the neighbor of your neighbor from whom you've taken lands from or if their AE is at least 100-150. Its kinda stupid that for example The Mamluks would join a coalition against me when I was playing as Ming when I took the lands of Manchuria, they are already outraged with only 20 or so AE.

If the current coalition mechanics were indeed historical, how in the world did the Mongols ever expand so far? OE/coring mechanic at least is plausible since the Mongols didn't have enough time to core, they collapsed in under a century, not to mention their succession wars as well.

I personally dislike vassal feeding/diplo-annex etc. I like to do the good ol ways of expansion... through domination and conquest.
I completely agree with this statement.

My problem isn't building a big empire, it's being able to keep it. I'm playing Spain and managed to colonize most of S. America and Africa. I also inherited France through a personal union after the French king died. I set my sights on India and the small German states. I got 3 vassals in Germany through diplomacy (not catch and release tactics) and planned to wage war on their neighbors to feed them and gain HRE votes.

Unfortunately, my plan fell apart when I crushed Austria and her allies only to be attacked by a coalition of UK, Netherlands, Russia, Milan (who inherited Burgundy and became a super power in my game) and about six minor allies of theirs. Just as I was beginning to cope with this unprovoked war, the Ottomans step in with about six more minor allies and start attacking me along side the European powers. The Ottoman hoard just marched right through Austria, Germany, and Switzerland and then fought side my side with the Dutch and the Europeans. In the end, I had to except a peace deal releasing half of France as 4 different independent nations and giving up two of my German vassals.

No sooner does the truce from these two wars run out, and the UK/Dutch coalition declares war on me again this time bringing Austria along for the ride!

How do people cope with these AI coalitions?
 

brifbates

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Mar 4, 2004
10.889
2.841
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
One thing no one here seems to be mentioning that is also quite effective is to properly manage your diplomatic relations and AE gains. It is perfectly possible to get huge empires without feeding provinces to vassals or releasing to later re-annex. Maintain high dip relations with the nations you don't want to have in coalitions against you and spread your expansion around to different areas so you aren't constantly generating AE with the same nations. Obviously some nations are better positioned than others for that sort of strategy. If you just took a few provinces in the Balkans then taking more in Hungary is asking for half or more of central and eastern Europe to join a coalition against you, taking some provinces in N. Africa or Asia, OTOH, probably won't have anything like the same effect...