How did the DH team allocate resources?

[Slaughter]

Hi guys.

I've been adding a lot of resources in a mod lately and that led me to the allocation of resources.

For example, I have been wondering what the team considers metals, and what the teams considers rare materials. For example, Copper and Manganese are rare materials or metals? Which of these is Titanium? Uranium is rares? Lead? Tin? Zinc? Lithium? Aluminium?

How much each point of energy represents? KWs? MWs?

How much every manpower point represents?

 

[Eugenioso]

In the old HOI2 manual, metal represented all metal types, without taking into account special metal resources like Tungsten or the like. HOI3 i believe did add location resources; in DH this is represented by spikes in resources in certain areas.

 

[Slaughter]

In the old HOI2 manual, metal represented all metal types, without taking into account special metal resources like Tungsten or the like. HOI3 i believe did add location resources; in DH this is represented by spikes in resources in certain areas.

Rather informative.

So what do Rare Materials represent? I know about the rubber, what else?

Do you have a copy of the old manual? Maybe it has info on how much a point of energy represents.

 

[Eugenioso]

Rare represents all the 'harder to get' materials, like rubber, Tungsten as previously mentioned, and other smaller resources required to make them. In some mods you can do a conversion process to transform other resources into it, but its very inefficient. Southeast Pacific and Southeast Asia still holds the biggest Rare deposits in the game.

 

[Nick3210]

There is no exact formula for the ratio of types and number of resources in original Hoi Games.

All resources are made very rudely, careless and unrealistic, both in number and in their location in the provinces.

Therefore, if you want to have the resource map that corresponds to 1936-1945 REALITY (or any other dates reality), you must make it yourself and do not hope on Hoi developers.

I did it.
I will not be falsely humble - I am the only one who has implemented the most accurate number and location of resources on the Hoi map.
No one other game has and never will have such accuracy in resources as my Mod have.

I used next ratios:

1 'drop' of Oil = OR 100 tons of crude Oil = OR 100 tonns of Mazut (Fuel oil) = OR 40 tons of Light Fuel
1 'drop' of Oil on Map = OR 36 000 tons of crude Oil per year = OR 14 400 tons of Light Fuel per year

1 mln kW of hydropower generation = 60 Energy on Map
100 МW of hydropower generation = 6 Energy on Map

1 mln tons of Coal per year = 5 Energy on Map
1 Energy on Map = 200 000 tons of Coal per year
1 Energy = 556 tons of Coal

1 Coal = 2 brown (Lignite) Coal

1 mln tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) per year = 18 Metal on Map
1 Iron Ore on Map = 55 555 tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) per year
1 Metal = 154 tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) = 69 tons of 100%Fe Concentrate

Iron ore deposits usually have anywhere from 30 to 60 percent of iron content. Putting the ore on the Map you must take into account this percentage of Ferrum concentration in these ore mines.
For example 60%Fe ore (Sweden) contains twice more Metal than 30%Fe ore (Germany)

10 000 tons of natural rubber per year = 5 Rares on Map.
1 Rare on Map = 2 000 tons of natural rubber per year
1 Rare = 5,5(5) tons of natural rubber

Important to know.
At this time, there were only two mass technologies of the production of synthetic rubber - from Coal in Germany and from Potatoes (from ethanol) in USSR.
If in your game synthetic rubber in 1933-1945 produced from 'Oil' - throw your game in the trash.

By my 'rares'-conception for Hoi-2, around 25% of all Rares (totally there are around 1900 rares on all Map) are Rubber.
Other 75% of Rares are other 13 key rare metals.

Rubber - 25% of Rares = 500 Rares on Map
90% of all Rubber located in Asia.

Other 13 key rare metals:

Al (Baux Ore)
Mn - Manganese Ore
V - Vanadium Ore
Mo - Molybdenum Ore
W - Tungsten Ore
Cu - Copper Ore
Pb - Lead Ore
Zn - Zinc Ore
Sn - Tin Ore
Ni - Nickel Ore
Сr - Chrome Ore
Sb - Antimony Ore
Hg - Quicksilver

Here's an example of the number of Rares for Europe, based on real 1936-1941 economical statistic.

Spoiler

Of course, ideally, it is better to allocate rubber and rare metals in separate groups, but I work with that Hoi-2 engine, which we have - with all rares mixed into one pile.

 

[Eugenioso]

What a uselessly indepth guide. What are you trying to say here, that the HOI2 engine cannot handle Mn stocks? By that logic i urge you to make your own game engine that lets you set the standard tariff for importing it, and implement that into your game; im sure it will be a grandiose success.

 

[Nick3210]

Of course, ideally, it is better to allocate rubber and rare metals in separate groups, but I work with that Hoi-2 engine, which we have

Let you try to read what is written before to comment.

Of course, the separation of all mixed 'rares' into separate rubber and separate rare metals is the right step in the evolution of Hoi.
It seems it was done in Hoi 4 and it seems Hoi 4 is most sold of all Hoi

(Of course I hate and don't play Hoi 4 because it's terrible in many other aspects but that they made separate rubber and separate rare metals is one of their few good decisions)

 

[KostasL]

There is no exact formula for the ratio of types and number of resources in original Hoi Games.

All resources are made very rudely, careless and unrealistic, both in number and in their location in the provinces.

Therefore, if you want to have the resource map that corresponds to 1936-1945 REALITY, you must make it yourself and do not hope on Hoi developers.

I did it.
I will not be falsely humble - I am the only one who has implemented the most accurate number and location of resources on the Hoi map.
No one other game has and never will have such accuracy in resources as my Mod have.

I used next ratios:

1 'drop' of Oil = OR 100 tons of crude Oil = OR 100 tonns of Mazut (Fuel oil) = OR 40 tons of Light Fuel
1 'drop' of Oil on Map = OR 36 000 tons of crude Oil per year = OR 14 400 tons of Light Fuel per year

1 mln kW of hydropower generation = 60 Energy on Map
100 МW of hydropower generation = 6 Energy on Map

1 mln tons of Coal per year = 5 Energy on Map
1 Energy on Map = 200 000 tons of Coal per year
1 Energy = 556 tons of Coal

1 Coal = 2 brown (Lignite) Coal

1 mln tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) per year = 18 Metal on Map
1 Iron Ore on Map = 55 555 tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) per year
1 Metal = 154 tons of Iron Ore (with 45% Fe) = 69 tons of 100%Fe Concentrate

Iron ore deposits usually have anywhere from 30 to 60 percent of iron content. Putting the ore on the Map you must take into account this percentage of Ferrum concentration in these ore mines.
For example 60%Fe ore (Sweden) contains twice more Metal than 30%Fe ore (Germany)

10 000 tons of natural rubber per year = 5 Rares on Map.
1 Rare on Map = 2 000 tons of natural rubber per year
1 Rare = 5,5(5) tons of natural rubber

Important to know.
At this time, there were only two mass technologies of the production of synthetic rubber - from Coal in Germany and from Potatoes (from ethanol) in USSR.
If in your game synthetic rubber in 1933-1945 produced from 'Oil' - throw your game in the trash.

By my 'rares'-conception for Hoi-2, around 25% of all Rares (totally there are around 1900 rares on all Map) are Rubber.
Other 75% of Rares are other 13 key rare metals.

Rubber - 25% of Rares = 500 Rares on Map
90% of all Rubber located in Asia.

Other 13 key rare metals:

Al (Baux Ore)
Mn - Manganese Ore
V - Vanadium Ore
Mo - Molybdenum Ore
W - Tungsten Ore
Cu - Copper Ore
Pb - Lead Ore
Zn - Zinc Ore
Sn - Tin Ore
Ni - Nickel Ore
Сr - Chrome Ore
Sb - Antimony Ore
Hg - Quicksilver

Here's an example of the number of Rares for Europe, based on real 1936-1941 economical statistic.

Spoiler

Of course, ideally, it is better to allocate rubber and rare metals in separate groups, but I work with that Hoi-2 engine, which we have - with all rares mixed into one pile.

Well done !

Rare materials are also supposed to include minerals like Cobalt and Uranium..

What's more it would be nice if the game featured new mineral or oil deposits exploited...like it happened historically.

 

[Nick3210]

You are absolutely right, Cobalt is also important rare metal used in armor production... but I could not find accurate information on its extraction during WW2. So I couldn't count up Cobalt ((
Uranium would be needed for production of nuclear weapons... but if there is no such mechanics in Hoi-2, then uranium is also not needed on Hoi-2 Map.

New deposits can be implemented by events, that's not a problem, this possibility is present.
For example, Saudi oil began to be produced since 1938 year, or Finnish Nickel since 1940, I made it by events.

 

[Slaughter]

There is no exact formula for the ratio of types and number of resources in original Hoi Games.

Ah, pity.

I did it.
I will not be falsely humble - I am the only one who has implemented the most accurate number and location of resources on the Hoi map.
No one other game has and never will have such accuracy in resources as my Mod have.

Well done!

Query: Did it cause any significant gameplay differences compared to vanilla?

1 mln kW of hydropower generation = 60 Energy on Map
100 МW of hydropower generation = 6 Energy on Map

So 100 MW = 6 energy... therefore 50 MWs = 3 energy, 25 MWs = 1.5 energy, 12.5 MWs = 0.75 energy?

Don't you mean "60 energy in storage" in the first one?

You see, the original reason I created this thread is because I want to add a more real-world basis to resources in FODD, both because I didn't want to add resources willy-nilly and because its better and more plausible, and I wanted to, in the fashion of Fallout New Vegas, feature not just Hoover Dam, but various other old hydroelectric plants of North America in FODD. The most important one being, of course, Hoover Dam from New Vegas, which I used as my baseline. Of course, because its a post-apoc mod, the scale ought to be far smaller than in a WWII game (Hoover Dam is just another big hydroelectrical dam in HOI terms and in your formula it , but in FNV, its a Big Deal).

Later, I started thinking in terms of other resources as well.

Here's the calculations I used, with Hoover Dam (2.200 MWs) as base:

MWs / 6, then put the floating point (".") one number to the left.
2200 / 6 = 366. Moving the floating point left, I am left with 36.6 energy on the map.

That worked well at first, but then I developed the concept of "damage levels" as in, these facilities may be damaged by the atomic war or disrepair, and therefore not working at full power. These would be five levels (Destroyed/Heavily Damaged/Mildly Damaged/Lightly Damaged/Intact), which correspond to 0% - 25% - 50% - 75% - 100%.

I also realized that MWs / 6 would make only the large plants count and make anything bellow 1000 MW pretty much nothing. Also, 36 energy is actually not much.

So I tried MWs / 4.
2200 / 4 = 550. Move the point left and its 55.0 energy. Better, still makes a lot of other smaller hydroplants very puny.

I have currently reached Energy = MW move point one house to the left.
So Hoover Dam would be 220.0 energy at maximum capacity..

To balance it, I'm using my damage concept, which I apply through a complicated dice-roll system to account for the possibility of nuclear strikes and disrepair damaging and destroying the plant. Hoover Dam is the only exception, but it won't use 100% of its energy from the get-go. The idea is to allow players to rebuild these dams and obtain all their power-generation capacity - unless they are destroyed, then they are gone (althrough I might allow building a new one from scratch).

1 mln tons of Coal per year = 5 Energy on Map
1 Energy on Map = 200 000 tons of Coal per year
1 Energy = 556 tons of Coal

1 Coal = 2 brown (Lignite) Coal

How did you reach this coal-energy formula?

A question: If one accounts for Uranium in energy and rares production, how much should I account for it as an Energy resource and how much as a Rare?

Iron ore deposits usually have anywhere from 30 to 60 percent of iron content. Putting the ore on the Map you must take into account this percentage of Ferrum concentration in these ore mines.
For example 60%Fe ore (Sweden) contains twice more Metal than 30%Fe ore (Germany)

Ooooh, that's VERY useful information! So the iron content is key.

By my 'rares'-conception for Hoi-2, around 25% of all Rares (totally there are around 1900 rares on all Map) are Rubber.
Other 75% of Rares are other 13 key rare metals.

Al (Baux Ore)
Mn - Manganese Ore
V - Vanadium Ore
Mo - Molybdenum Ore
W - Tungsten Ore
Cu - Copper Ore
Pb - Lead Ore
Zn - Zinc Ore
Sn - Tin Ore
Ni - Nickel Ore
Сr - Chrome Ore
Sb - Antimony Ore
Hg - Quicksilver

Ooooh, that's very cool! Especially that beautiful, beautiful list of metals. I was putting Copper and Molybdenum as ordinary metals. Guess I got to revamp some of my ideas.

If you don't mind me asking: Do you have any formulas for manpower?

 

[Nick3210]

How did you reach this coal-energy formula?

Coal-Energy and IronOre-Metal ratio set empirically and basically depends on the number of IC in your game world.
I tested different ratios and finally set the most optimal values for good game balance in my game.

My World Map on 1936 have: 2215 IC, 1912 rares, 3809 Metal, 7530 Energy - these are optimal values, taking into account policy sliders, technology efficiency, new IC building, and other factors.
As you can see it is standart 1 : 2 : 4 ratio between resurses, according to game mechanics.

Don't you mean "60 energy in storage" in the first one?

Nono , exactly 'on Map'
Once you have empirically set the exact rate of Coal-to-Energy for your game, you can calculate the correct rate value for electricity-to-Energy,

As far as I could find information that:
Nowadays, to produce 1 KW of electricity, it is necessary to burn 370 grams of high-quality energetic (anthracite) Donetsk coal.
or 1,5 brown coal (lignite).

Unfortunately I have not yet found information about exact efficiency of Coal-to-Energy converting in 1930-1940.
So I crudely assumed that the efficiency at that time could be twice worse as today:

1 kW/hour = 1,5 kg of average-game-Coal/hour

Therefore 1 mln kW Hydrostation = 1500 tons of average-game-Coal per hour = 36 000 tons of Coal per 24 hours = 13 mln tons of Coal per year.

Because in my game: 1 mln tons of Coal per year = 5 Energy on Map
Therefore: 13 mln tons of Coal per year = 13 * 5 = 65 Energy on Map

Therefore I set ratio:
1 mln kW Hydrostation = 60 Energy on Map
100 MW (typical power of one turbine) = 6 Energy on Map

For example:
DneproGES in 1936 = 560 MW = 5.6 * 6 = 34 Energy on Map
Hoover Dam in 1939 = 705 MW = 42 Energy on Map

If anybody have more exact information about efficiency of converting coal-to-electricity in 1930-1940 I would be glad to see it.

If one accounts for Uranium in energy and rares production, how much should I account for it as an Energy resource and how much as a Rare?

I think Uranium should be Energy on Map.
I think that it is necessary to calculate consumption of uranium for generating electricity in nuclear power plant in the same way as I did coal consunption for generating electricity. The same principle.

Do you have any formulas for manpower?

Obviously, in vanilla Hoi2/DH:
1 MP on Map = 1 mln people.

Of course vanilla map is full of mistakes and some provinces have 3-5 times more people than in reality... but the ratio is nevertheless 1 MP on Map = 1 mln people. I use this ratio too.

 

[mccarty.geoff]

>If anybody have more exact information about efficiency of converting coal-to-electricity in 1930-1940 I would be glad to see it.
You're basically right. Coal thermal efficiency BTU/kWh has doubled since the 1930s. The spike for American plants in 1940 was the invention of the 610°C once-through steam generator. While most of the world used subcritical 538°C reheat steam generators and laughably still do.

I think trying to quantify MWh in HoI is baseless. Might as well stick with the weight and mass of coal itself. Electrolysis was important for magnesium and aluminum but, I think 90% of the planet just blasted their metals. The old coal, iron, and rare quantities are good enough for a 3 resource industrial capacity summary.

I don't know about the Fallout universe. If you wanted to make a realistic military industrial economy after nuclear warfare it depends on how many people have survived really. Hoover Dam's ~1500MW capacity in 1940 fed half of the western United States 50M population's consumption alone. Now a days it's 2080MW wouldn't satisfy 1/3rd of New York City's 12M population.

https://itspubs.ucdavis.edu/wp-content/themes/ucdavis/pubs/download_pdf.php?id=1108
A centurial history of technological change and learning curves for pulverized coal-fired utility boilers

https://b-ok.cc/dl/2696938/711d87
Clean and efficient coal fired power plants

 

[Nick3210]

Coal thermal efficiency BTU/kWh has doubled since the 1930s.

Wow! Thank you very much for the link to this great text!
It seems improbable, but my rough assumption about doubling the efficiency of coal-to-energy conversion turned out to be absolutely correct.
From 17% in 1940 to 34% now. Wonderfully! ))
Looks like I won't have to adjust anything.
The only thing that I think to do is to round up 6.5 Energy for 100 MWh not to 6 Energy on Map, as I did, but to 7 Energy.

 

[mccarty.geoff]

Good to see you're still kicking around Nick. You should apply your statistical autism to the Supreme Ruler engine I think. It's a lot less limited in scope.

 

[Nick3210]

I'm interested WW2 only.
And (unfortunately) since there is still nothing better than Hoi-2 I am doomed to work with this game next 5-10-20 ? years

 

[mccarty.geoff]

I'm stuck with Europa engine because I'm too cheap to buy a modern computer ;]
Supreme Ruler has a WW2 variant now. Most of the modders seem to dork out on unit types and technology but, the main consideration of warfare is logistics and supply. Whatever country can feed and equip the most troops is gonna win the engagement. Having accurate energy equivalences and production requirements will make an overall better wargame. If someone would make a very detailed production and stockpile interface like Aurora 4x and apply it to WW2 economy with a geospherical engine like Command: Modern Naval Air Operations than we'd be in business for game of the century.

 

[Nick3210]

Supreme Ruler looks primitive and it seems it is more economical strategy then quality war strategy. I've been watching some video guides and I think it's a waste of money.
Still, nothing has been created for WW2 that could compare with brilliant Hoi 2.
The game of the century must use brilliant Hoi 2 conceptions + new smart and deep improvements.

If you rejecting genius concepts of Hoi 2 then you get one more another primitive game for 6 years children... as Hoi 4 and similar.

 

[Slaughter]

@Nick3210, a question.

Do you think Boron falls within Rares?

 

[Nick3210]

@Nick3210, a question.
Do you think Boron falls within Rares?

I found no information about the significant use of Boron during WW2, it seems it began to be used later.
And (apparently for the same reason) also in the Statistical Yearbooks there is no data on its global production.
In fact, we can use only those resources whose production information is available in the annual statistical books.

In general, I was initially upset that there is no information on Cadmium "ore", which was actually used in the production of tank armor during WW2.
But after reading about it, I learned that Cadmium is not contained in individual deposits, it is a part of zinc/copper ores, so it is as if it is already automatically correctly setted among provinces/countries, if we have correctly settad the production of zinc and copper ores.

 

[NukePL91]

In general, I was initially upset that there is no information on Cadmium "ore", which was actually used in the production of tank armor during WW2.

Actually there is some info about cadmium in League of Nations statistical yearbooks.