How did the DH team allocate resources?

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Nick3210

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@Nick3210, a question.
Do you think Boron falls within Rares?
I found no information about the significant use of Boron during WW2, it seems it began to be used later.
And (apparently for the same reason) also in the Statistical Yearbooks there is no data on its global production.
In fact, we can use only those resources whose production information is available in the annual statistical books.

In general, I was initially upset that there is no information on Cadmium "ore", which was actually used in the production of tank armor during WW2.
But after reading about it, I learned that Cadmium is not contained in individual deposits, it is a part of zinc/copper ores, so it is as if it is already automatically correctly setted among provinces/countries, if we have correctly settad the production of zinc and copper ores.
 
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NukePL91

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In general, I was initially upset that there is no information on Cadmium "ore", which was actually used in the production of tank armor during WW2.
Actually there is some info about cadmium in League of Nations statistical yearbooks.
Screenshot_2021-01-09-23-26-14-687_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpg
 

Slaughter

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I found no information about the significant use of Boron during WW2, it seems it began to be used later.
And (apparently for the same reason) also in the Statistical Yearbooks there is no data on its global production.
In fact, we can use only those resources whose production information is available in the annual statistical books.

In general, I was initially upset that there is no information on Cadmium "ore", which was actually used in the production of tank armor during WW2.
But after reading about it, I learned that Cadmium is not contained in individual deposits, it is a part of zinc/copper ores, so it is as if it is already automatically correctly setted among provinces/countries, if we have correctly settad the production of zinc and copper ores.

Oh, informative. Thank you Nick!

Oh hey, btw... I have been thinking about manpower and demographics. What does DH considers manpower. I mean, does it include all the popullation or just, say, males of fighting age? How much is that, % wise? I've trying to hash out a proper manpower calculation for my mod.
 

NukePL91

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What does DH considers manpower.
Province manpower = all population of given province. Irrespectively of your mobilization system, you get some percentage of that. In DH Light (~ old HoI2 system, iirc it is in FODD) you have these ratios:
Code:
# National Province Manpower Multiplier (income per day)
    0.01
# Non-National Province Manpower Multiplier (income per day.) Note: Some types of ministers can affect this value.
    0.001
# Colonial Province Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
    0.1
# MP multiplier for puppets (multiplied on the other)
    0.8 #1.0
# Wartime oversea provinces Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
    1.0 #0.0
# Peacetime Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
    0.7 #1.0
# Wartime Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
    1.0 #1.0
# Daily retired Manpower - percentage of the current MP pool
    0.00005 #0.0
 
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Nick3210

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Actually there is some info about cadmium in League of Nations statistical yearbooks.
Yes, all values of resourses in my mod are taken from this yearbooks.
But, please note, this is not the "raw material" of Cadmium, it is pure Cadmium.
We should not map pure lead, zinc, or steel. Because the extraction of raw materials/ore can be produced in one country and exported for processing to another more developed country.
Thus, all rare resources, except (!) Cadmium, have there two tables - extraction of ore and production of pure products from these ore.
And very often it turns out that a country that does not have ore deposits is a major producer of this metal. :)
I am convinced that we need to map precisely the deposits of ore, but not plants for its processing.
Therefore, I did not use the data on pure Cadmium - this is not the extraction of "ore", this is the production of pure Cadmium, which could occur in a country where there are no deposits of zinc/lead/copper ores (For example, Belgium and France has a significant production of Cadmium, while they have a negligible production of zinc/lead ore and complete absence of copper ore, so obviously we can reasonably assume that Belgium and France produces pure Cadmium from zinc/lead/copper ore, exported from other countries.)
 
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Nick3210

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I have been thinking about manpower and demographics. What does DH considers manpower. I mean, does it include all the popullation or just, say, males of fighting age? How much is that, % wise? I've trying to hash out a proper manpower calculation for my mod.

As a modmaker you can create any concept that you think is the best :D
Apparently in the original Hoi-2/DH, 1 MP on Map = 1 mln of population.

How much men is in 1 MP of MP-pool depends from how much staff is in your standard infantry division.
If a standard infantry division has 10,000 men and costs 10 MP, then 1 MP = 1,000 men. (it seems this ratio is used in the original game)
My standard divisions have 15,000 men and 10 MP, respectively in my concept 1 MP = 1500 men

###################################################################################################################

The question about the annual MP increase in the MP pool (corresponding coefficients in the Misc-file) is what causes the most gross errors in Hoi.
In the original Hoi-2 and DH-Full, the MP gain realized completely incorrect and completely out of reality.

In order to calculate the exact growth rates of MP (the increase in the number of available recruits within the specified limits of the mobilization age), you need to carefully study the birth rate in the main countries in 1915-1925 and the resulting increase in the recruitment base in 1936-1945 (for obvious reasons I based my coefficients on the birth rate and the recruitment base of Germany and USSR).

Annual (=daily in Hoi-mechanics) increase of MP has two different speeds - increase of MP in peacetime and increase of MP in wartime.

The increase of MP in peacetime is caused by increase in the available number of recruits, due to the increase in the birth rate in 1915-1925.
(Each year, we can mobilize slightly more new recruits than we demobilize them)
The "delta" between mobilized and demobilized recruits is our true annual increase of the MR pool.
For 1936-1942, it reached an incredible 10% per year in Germany/USSR, due to the blasting growth of the birth rate after the end of the WW1.

The number of new recruits each year is approximately 1% of all population, but after deducting those who were rejected by the medical board or was managed legally or illegally to evade military service, this real basic value can be lower. I base my calculations on the value 0.8%, taking into account that some ministers and political sliders can improve this effectiveness of basic recruiting coefficient.

The increase of MP in wartime is equal to the increase in peacetime... PLUS the full annual conscription of new recruits who have reached military age (prohibition of the demobilization of previous conscripts in wartime!).
Therefore, the increase of MP in wartime should increase dramatically and many times more, 10-20 times more!
(and thanks to the developers for making different coefficients for peacetime and wartime)

For 1936-1942 Germany and USSR:
MP growth in wartime = MP growth in peacetime + 10 x MP growth in peacetime.

After thorough study of the years statistics of recruit bases of Germany and USSR, I setted the following coefficients for the growth of MP in peacetime and wartime:

# National Province Manpower Multiplier (income per day)
0.01 # 0.02 #0.0075
# Peacetime Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
0.15 # 0.01 #0.0015
# Wartime Manpower Multiplier (multiplied on the other)
1.6 # 0.30 #0.033

(this settings are correct for "1MP = 1500 men" concept)

Hmm, hmm... looking at my settings, it seems, I now felt a hard desire to round 1.65 up, 1.7 will be more good than current 1.6.
Yes, in the next version I will make my wartime coefficient = 1.7, it will be better for Germany the Gameplay. :)
 
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Lord Rommel

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The manpower system had some fundamental problems.
Manpower are all men ready for service within the army but neither DH nor HoI IV had think about the administrativ and logistical aspect.
When we have done our MP rework for the TRP Mod we had started with research for information about population, army suitable men and ratios of combat troops and logistical troops.
It is very hard to get solide information here.
But here are some information that could be used to get a kind of "feeling" for the problem:

On paper an average german division of 1944 had ~12.500 soldiers. They are already a mix of combat troops and combat support troops (like mechanics, medical service or field post and kitchen services). The administration behind the division was another 14.000 men. They were truck drivers, administration men like military logistical personal, "Verwaltungsbeamte", rail service men and many more. So a regular division need up to 26.500 men to get operational in combat. Basing on those numbers it is no surprise that when Wehrmacht reached its peak in strength in 1944 with close to 7mio men, "only" 3.250.000 men were part of the "Feldheer" (field army). The "rest" was part of the Ersatzheer, logistical and administrative or industrial background of the fighting forces.

Numbers are even more interesting when u look at the US numbers to do some kind of base to compare both armies.
An average US division in 1944 is listed with 13.400 soldiers in the field and an additional 30.000 men for the rear services.
So u have a ratio of 1:1 for the german divisions and a ratio of 1:3 for the US divisions.
Eg. those numbers could help to explain why alliied armies were able to supply their field armies even when they had no large harbour or supply network point close to the frontlines. The US logistical system was much bigger compared to the germans because the US army put more effort into the "logistical aspects". For the german officer corps logistical questions were some kind of "under their dignity".

But to get back to the numbers:
These are examples to show that manpower is so abstract in HoI that it is very difficult to get it working in terms of realism and game mechanic. Same story with the ressources.

Source for my numbers:
Van Creveld, Martin: Kampfkraft: Militärische Organisation und Leistung der deutschen und amerikanischen Armee 1939-1945.Graz, 4. Auflage 2009, S.75.

Edit: Here is a list for the red army i had stored in my TRP research files:
Combat units (rifle corps, divisions, brigades) - 4 001 690 men
Replacement units - 1 172 935
Training units - 247 201
Total in rifle units - 5 421 826
Infantry officer's scools - 275 329
Airborne troops - 40 815
Fortified regions - 207 725
GHQ Reserve's artillery - 832 918
Rocket artillery - 129 686
Cavalry - 199 651
Tank troops - 645 061
AA Defence of the country's territory - 404 846
GHQ's Reserve's AA units - 138 298
Flamethrowing units - 16 358
Chemical units - 41 020
Signal - 267 208
Engineer - 297 316
Topographical - 15 317
Military road units - 144 708
Automobile transport - 203 527
Local rifle units - 67 833
Horse transport - 36 993
HQs of fronts and armies with service and security units - 105 314
HQs of military districts - 5 873
Local military administration - 26 509
Central administration of the Commissariat for Defence - 9 772
Control organs accepting weapons produced by the industry - 5 321
Partisan movement (central organizations) - 4 664
Political organs and political officer's schools - 50 695
Rear services not included in the arms' strength, rear officer's schools, reserve of commanding personnel - 476 398
Convalsescents's units - 81 574
Airforces:
Combat units - 129 395
Replacement units - 42 691
Ground and rear units - 345 749
Schools - 117 663
Total in airforces - 635 496
Total in the RKKA - 10 788 233
Source: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=112693&start=45
Basing on the fact that it is a forums post take those numbers with a grain of salt!
 
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Nick3210

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So u have a ratio of 1:1 for the german divisions and a ratio of 1:3 for the US divisions.
This is really interesting aspect, I never thought about the rear services!
Well, now I definitely have to think about how the rear services can affect the concept of MP and its calculation..

After thinking and searching for information, I came to these conclusions:

1. It is obvious that the rear services do not affect the annual (daily in the mechanics of Hoi) MP increase in both peacetime and wartime. So all calculations and MP growth factors do not change.

2. Rear services affect the maximum number of starting/backup MP in the MP pool.
Regardless of the MP-pool reserve concept (in Hoi-2, this full MP reserve is fully available from the start of the game, in DH-Full, this full MP reserve is "hidden" at the start of the game and becomes available gradually as the mobilization slider moves) - both concepts have any "starting basic MP reserve".

Therefore, the question of rear services and the starting reserve of MP in the MP-pool is related to what we understand by this starting reserve of MP?

In my understanding, the starting reserve of the MP is the number of potential reservists who can be mobilized as a several mobilized-ages.
But how many mobilized-ages should we include in this starting basic MP pool?
Should it be only the "first", most efficient wave of mobilization of men 20-29 years old?
Or other waves of mobilization, less combat-ready and older ages 30-39 or even 40-49 years old?
Or any other segments of ages?

I believe that just in this matter we should not rely on Realism (for each country WW2 required the call of different groups of draft ages), but on the Gameplay. :)
Since I was used to the Hoi-2 balance, I used the same familiar MP balance, which provides a good and familiar gameplay - the starting MP pool gets 30 MP for every 1 million people (1 MP on the map) for dictatorships, 25 MP for democracies and apparently 20 MP for the United States since they have a ratio of "1 to 3".

When all this starting pool is exhausted and distributed among divisions, this number of all used MP roughly corresponds to the "first" wave of mobilization of men of 10 mobilized-ages - from 20 to 29 years.

OK, let the rear services require the same number of personnel - for this we still have men of 30-60 years old, women and men who have failed the medical examination for hot areas of the front. In general, this "invisible stock" is more than enough to fill all "invisible rear services" in Hoi.

Therefore, it turns out that "invisible rear services" do not affect current MP-coefficients in Misc-file and current size of the MP-pool.

Moreover, by the way, I am not at all sure that all these rear-personnel are exactly military personnel, for sure among them there is a very significant percentage of civilians who do not belong to the "game-MP".
Also, such groups of rear officers as students of officer and non-commissioned schools, for the concepts of Hoi, do not belong to the rear-personnel - definitely they all are a part of free MP in the MP pool, because sooner or later they will go to replenish divisions at the front!
We also have to subtract all the female rear-personnel.

Therefore, the ratio of "1 to 1", for Hoi should be recalculated and will be another, for example, 1 to 0.5 or any other, but it need to be calculated - to subtract from the rear-personnel of all students of military education, civilians and women.

By the way, at the first attempt I could not find any information at all on the total number of personnel in the rear services of the Red Army. :confused:
And accordingly, I could not find or calculate the ratio of "front-line" personnel and rear-personnel for the Soviets. Obviously, I also could not find data on how many civilians and women were there.
It remains a mystery shrouded in darkness.
I'm not sure that I can make correct conclusions about the number of soviet rear-personnel from the table you showed.

I only could find very outdated information for the peacetime, for 1928. There is reported that the number of rear-personnel in the USSR is 18% of the entire army (9% - military establishments, 9% - supplies), and in France, the rear services are only 8% (!) of the entire army.
 
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Lord Rommel

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For the Wehrmacht i can confirm that all of the 7mio men were "part" of the Army (ranked into the army/navy/airforce branches).
There were "Generale des Transportwesens" down to regular soldiers (Gefreite) for Trucks driving, first aid, mechanics, training, transport, building, construction, repair, mine clearing, communitcation, ectpp..
There is one exception; the german "Beamtentum" (not sure that there is an english term at all. Perhaps "public official" get close to the german "Beamten"). Wehrmachtsbeamte were civilian but part of the army hierarchy. They were small in numbers and were often responsable for the administrative rear services of a field combat formation.

To be honest that is one aspect many ww2 games were missing at all; The hole logistical system consumes manpower.
German frontline/rearguard ration changed during the war. I wasnt able to find the numbers but it dropped down to 1:1 when the german army
started to draft more and more men from the "logistical branches" into the frontline formations.

By the way:
I have checked Van Creveld again.
Basing on his text it seems to me that the US did the same; men of the logistical rear services were part of the army structures.
 

Eginhard 38

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Manpower in logistics is indeed overlooked in most games (as are logistics themselves). Proper logistics in DH would simply require a complete rewriting of the engine from scratch, negating the very concept of DH itself.

Therefore, we're stuck with this very imperfect and way too much abstract logistical system. Some workarounds are possible, though. Perhaps you could raise the required manpower to create units without changing the number of personnel used to track casualties. It would allow you to keep the manpower system simple (available mp encompassing all mobilized men), and you could decrease the combat/services ratio in later models. Perhaps it would even allow to scrape some mp when the unit upgrades.

I think of further possibilities, like trading supply efficiency (ESE) for manpower to figure the input of service personnel into frontline troops, but it would require an elaborate decision system (and some degree of arbitrary choices if historical data is insufficient).
 

Lord Rommel

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To be honest i think u need a ratio to separate the "combat mp" from the "mp overall". That wont be the problem at all.
I think it will be more difficult to design a dynamic system - perhaps by decision :)
 

Nick3210

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I wasnt able to find the numbers but it dropped down to 1:1 when the german army
started to draft more and more men from the "logistical branches" into the frontline formations.
Basing on his text it seems to me that the US did the same; men of the logistical rear services were part of the army structures.

Well, so, these ratios 1:1 and 1:3 made by taking into account only military personnel, without taking into account civilians, ok, nice.

To adapt these ratios to game-MP, we need to subtract from the rear-personnel:
- students of military institutions, who after training will go to the front divisions (if they were counted in this research as rear-personnel)
- women (if your MP-conception consists MP only of male recruits). I think, if there is no information about the number of women in Army, then we can make a rough rounding and subtract all the rear hospitals, because probably there is the largest percentage of women.

This can change the ratio of "combat" and "rear" MP in game.
But I can't find your book as free on-line reading, without using credit card and registration, so I can't calculate it.

In any case, now I'm going to assume that for Germany every 1 "visible" MP, which is going to the divisions, as well spent roughly 1 "invisible" MP at the invisible rear troops.
I.e. if before I thought that my starting MP-pool consists of mobilized men of 20-29 years, now I will know that actually my starting MP-pool consists of mobilized men of 20-29 and also men of 30-39 years, which are in invisible rear-troops.
Thus, all high-quality MP is exhausted and for additional game-events on extra-MP I have only a few old men over 40 years.

Source: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=112693&start=45
Basing on the fact that it is a forums post take those numbers with a grain of salt!

I found there original table in Russian by your link and tried roughly to calculate the rear MP, with the deduction of cadets and women.
https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/text/3282.html

I got around 2.1 million of "rear male-MP" in a 10.3 million Army, after this "optimization" in 1943. Before optimisation it was 2.6 mln in 10.8 mln Army.
So "rear male-MP" was around 25% of the entire Army.
(by the way, there is an interesting order for the additional replacement of 500,000 "rear men" by women and sending them to the front)

I have no ideas why the Soviets have such a small rear-personnel compared to Germany.
May be the Soviets used more civilian drivers/railway workers/others? Don't know.
Although it is clear that the supply on home territory requires less rear units than in the occupied territory.

It would be interesting to know the German MP ratio, after deducting cadets and women from rear-personnel. (without "Hilfswilligers" too)
 
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I found no information about the significant use of Boron during WW2, it seems it began to be used later.
Informative, thank you. Would it be considered rares after WW2?


I just had a new question: Should Lithium be considered a rare? I'm not sure wherever to have Lithium be rares or metals.
Province manpower = all population of given province. Irrespectively of your mobilization system, you get some percentage of that. In DH Light (~ old HoI2 system, iirc it is in FODD) you have these ratios:
Deeply informative, thank you.

Question: Can these values be changed for certain nations throughout the game using events and such? Especially retired manpower interests me.
As a modmaker you can create any concept that you think is the best :D
Apparently in the original Hoi-2/DH, 1 MP on Map = 1 mln of population.

How much men is in 1 MP of MP-pool depends from how much staff is in your standard infantry division.
If a standard infantry division has 10,000 men and costs 10 MP, then 1 MP = 1,000 men. (it seems this ratio is used in the original game)
My standard divisions have 15,000 men and 10 MP, respectively in my concept 1 MP = 1500 men

Indeed.

Right now I am going with 1 mp = 1k people, because obviously FODD is much smaller-scale in manpower. Biggest city in the wasteland AFAIK is Shady Sands and that's 3k on the city itself, I'm assuming average urbanization rate around 30%, so there's 9k people in the area around it. Therefore 12k total and 12 manpower in my top mp province.

Standard infantry division has 100 men and costs 4 MP. 1 MP = 25 men.

Why your concept has higher men per MP, btw?
 

NukePL91

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Deeply informative, thank you.

Question: Can these values be changed for certain nations throughout the game using events and such? Especially retired manpower interests me.
In misc.txt you have only global values. You can use something like DH Full decision/events mobilization system or ministers' personalities to distinguish manpower gains/losses between countries.
 

Altruist

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To be honest i think u need a ratio to separate the "combat mp" from the "mp overall". That wont be the problem at all.
I think it will be more difficult to design a dynamic system - perhaps by decision :)
I'd second that.
Because the longer one thinks about it, the more complicated it gets. No army really recruits all recruitable men at the start of the war. For example coal- and steel workers were extempt and deemed "kriegswichtig" (it is easier to say in German, in English: working in industries deemed too important for war to make them soldiers). But then, the longer the war goes, the greater the hunger for more not yet dead corpses, so recruitment gets tougher and this "tougher" gets the new recruits not only from the new to age coming year but looks at all again between 18-43 not yet recruited... and then beyond until you are with children and old people like in the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm in the end.

All countries in WW2 also found ways to free men to make them soldiers by getting women into work previously only allowed for men, or in the case of the Red Army women joining and fighting in the army, industries turned down and rationing introduced or POWs who had to work or in the case of Germany forced labour, concentrations camps etc.

In one mod, can't remember which it was, the system of recruiting in waves (as common for the Wehrmacht) was used. Perhaps a good idea because you can start with a lower percentage and raise it with each wave... or, well, it's a game and perhaps one shouldn't overcomplicate it because it is tedious work to research and really every country handled it at least a bit differently.
 
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Nick3210

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Informative, thank you. Would it be considered rares after WW2?

I just had a new question: Should Lithium be considered a rare? I'm not sure wherever to have Lithium be rares or metals.

I'm the greatest expert only on 01.01.1936 data :D
I'm not interesting after WW2 period.

In USSR during WW2, I see Lithium used as:
"Lithium improves the properties of aluminum-zinc alloys - increases their strength and corrosion resistance. It also improves the technological properties of cast iron and increases its strength."
But since there is no data on its production by countries during WW2, so I did not take lithium into account.

Why your concept has higher men per MP, btw?

This is obvious, I'm just too lazy to change the usual classic cost of the infantry division from 10 MP to 15 MP.
 
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Lord Rommel

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I'm the greatest expert only on 01.01.1936 data :D

Okay. Good to know ;) Because i'm looking for the 1936 detailed army files of the french army. Do u have the formal oob files? Thx.

For the rest:
Lithium:
Basing on my information the biggest Lithium source were the USA with ~8.000t Lithia in 1936 (6.000t in 1938) and over 84.400t in 1944.
Most the Lithia was used for the electronical industry to produce radios, aviation equipment and over special technical devises.
From German i know that some lithia was used by Zeiss for IR/heat detecting devices and other special optics.


I'd second that.
Because the longer one thinks about it, the more complicated it gets. No army really recruits all recruitable men at the start of the war. For example coal- and steel workers were extempt and deemed "kriegswichtig" (it is easier to say in German, in English: working in industries deemed too important for war to make them soldiers). But then, the longer the war goes, the greater the hunger for more not yet dead corpses, so recruitment gets tougher and this "tougher" gets the new recruits not only from the new to age coming year but looks at all again between 18-43 not yet recruited... and then beyond until you are with children and old people like in the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm in the end.

All countries in WW2 also found ways to free men to make them soldiers by getting women into work previously only allowed for men, or in the case of the Red Army women joining and fighting in the army, industries turned down and rationing introduced or POWs who had to work or in the case of Germany forced labour, concentrations camps etc.

In one mod, can't remember which it was, the system of recruiting in waves (as common for the Wehrmacht) was used. Perhaps a good idea because you can start with a lower percentage and raise it with each wave... or, well, it's a game and perhaps one shouldn't overcomplicate it because it is tedious work to research and really every country handled it at least a bit differently.
For our TRP rework we are working on a "wave styles" system. It will be a hybrid of events-decisions. We will use the DH mobilisation slider for some global mp growth combined with decision based manpower event. We are working with a period of service system. U will be able to chose between different periods of service (1 year conscription, 2year conscription, ect) to generate a calculated amount of manpower by the province based manpower numbers. To be honst the system is quiet complicated and need a lot of time and balance and at the moment we dont have the time to work on it so i cant present u the new TRP manpower system yet.
But i'm quiet confident that we will be release a version with the manpower rework in the future.
 

Nick3210

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Because i'm looking for the 1936 detailed army files of the french army. Do u have the formal oob files? Thx.
I plan to start digging into French OOB right after I finish the USA. We'll definitely discuss it then, as we did it with GER and ITA! :D

I left the study of French OOB for the last time because for some unknown reasons :rolleyes:, France quickly disappears from the map during the game and does not make a serious impact on the course of the game... :rolleyes:

So... you have plenty of time to think again about "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" proudly marching on DH-Map in the Ruhr region in March 1936! ;)
I'm sure it was a very impressive and majestic sight!
The women cheered, waved, and threw flowers at the marching braves.
An unforgettable show!
 
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Nick3210

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We will use the DH mobilisation slider for some global mp growth combined with decision based manpower event.
U will be able to chose between different periods of service (1 year conscription, 2year conscription, ect) to generate a calculated amount of manpower by the province based manpower numbers. To be honst the system is quiet complicated and need a lot of time and balance
Yes, this would be really the most realistic MP-pool system!
But it is really so difficult to implement this correct and balance it for all different countries that I did not dare to get involved in it. :)

I wish you success!

As far as I understand, in the original DH-Full, they tried to do something similar.
The idea was good, but their implementation of this good idea, unfortunately, turned out to be absolutely anti-realistic in many aspects.
 
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