How did Germany get almost 500 divisions?

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seattle

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Nobody987

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Also, AI is not willing to switch to better economy laws. Just checking now in the game 1939, few nations have switched to better laws. Only France from democratic and nations in peace is switched to early mobilization, even though tension is 41%. Even ITA AND JAP is not on war economy, only Germany.
 

Razor

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Keep in mind that a lot of mods are using "workaround" to fix problems.
Paradox can't really do that - we actually have to fix stuff "properly" - and If it would have been that easy it would already have been implemented.
That's perfectly fine provided you get there eventually. However, if the "correct" solution comes with this performance price I wonder if it's the right way.

The game, which ran fine before the patch, became a lot slower. A reload seems to help but reduce the fun a bit of course. This happens even though I have removed all 3d stuff and weather from the map.
 
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Ancalimé

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Has no one read my posts in the previous weeks about modding for preventing division spam?

Changing the combat width and division components within default templates do not work. I even changed how much the AI pays attention to division width and made it more likely to use the target width that's defined in the templates... nope, does no effect. The AI still sticks to 12-18 division width for most. It is willing to go higher for armoured, but still nowhere near to compete with player divisions.
Changing division components on the other hand results in stuff like creating divisions with X but then not producing that X equipment and deploying divisions short on equipment.

I've done over 100 hours of modding and watching the AI play the game to test the division spam restricting actions and the conclusion I've come to is that the AI is too unpredictable to definitively say that the changes are effective. In most cases it's uneffective and results in the AI to behave weirdly. In other cases it outright breaks the game. For example: you cannot limit AI division deployment without also changing the conditions for national focuses like Anschluss, Sudetenland, Annex Czechoslovakia and Annex Slovakia etc. Those national focuses need a minimum number of manpower in active service before they are triggered.

That's why there aren't many division spam restricting mods out there. We already have figured out how to do it, but because of their unpredictable behaviour and our inability to conclusively say that those changes won't break the game we are not releasing them (at least I am not releasing mine for those reasons. Also I've done other stuff to make the AI perform better in a number of situations -especially naval invasions, they are more successful now- and they need further testing). You can only find such tweaks in more comprehensive mods, where they are more or less guaranteed to work as intended.

Some of you guys should really do some reading on already published material out there. Check out the modding sub-forums. You'll learn a lot.
 
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Jorgen_CAB

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I have actually managed to get the AI to build close to historical number of divisions so it is definitely possible. It also work with Anschluss etc..

I managed many parts to tweak this, such as lowering manpower to actually only include combat ready people. This is the biggest reason the AI can't spam troops. Raised the production cost of equipment and modified the conscription and economy laws to fit the changes. Each brigade take roughly 50% more manpower and this give units about the same manpower as they had historically. This also help with events that require a set amount of manpower to work.

The AI can still build the same templated... I actually lowered the maximum width allowed in combat rather than trying to make divisions bigger, a far more realistic way to do it. I also lowered the penalty to go over the width limit so you don't have to game the system with width... I also use odd numbers on the max width so there are no perfect width for units. You should now be able to throw about 3-4 times the resources at an enemy with just one standard division in a province if you attack from one direction and 1.5 extra for each area you attack from after that, this should be enough for game balance sake.
I counted the standard width of Divisions to be 21 (18 line units width and 3 line support width). So Max width is now 61 and you get another 31 for each additional area you attack from and -1% for each width you have extra up to +16 extra width. I use as many odd numbers here sp there are no real optimum way to build the units, this mainly help the AI against player min/max.
 

Moser

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I'm having success with curbing division spam by going 30-width with new templates and longer training times (e.g. 270 days for infantry, 360 days for armor). However, now they don't want to upgrade to med ARM.....hmmm.
 

SDAirborne173

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@podcat

Can you acknowledge that you're aware of all that's been discussed here? Extremely frustrating for a lot of us. The division spam is game breaking by early 1941.
 
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Moser

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Has no one read my posts in the previous weeks about modding for preventing division spam?

Changing the combat width and division components within default templates do not work. I even changed how much the AI pays attention to division width and made it more likely to use the target width that's defined in the templates... nope, does no effect. The AI still sticks to 12-18 division width for most. It is willing to go higher for armoured, but still nowhere near to compete with player divisions.
Changing division components on the other hand results in stuff like creating divisions with X but then not producing that X equipment and deploying divisions short on equipment.

Seems to work fine for me....

kBI749F.jpg
 

MasterAckrovan

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The historical implausibility is something thats grinds my gears but imo its the effect on my computers performance that's really aggravating. For people like myself who play their games on toasters, by 1940 the lag starts to get extremely intense, game freezes for a few seconds when I scroll down to look at my troops, frame rate starts to drop, my machine even starts getting a little overheated from having so many units on the map. Not cool man, not cool :(
 
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Nobody987

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Changing division components on the other hand results in stuff like creating divisions with X but then not producing that X equipment and deploying divisions short on equipment.

Actually, now it takes care of missing equipment. It changes priorities for missing stuff, adds new equipment (like SPART for example) etc. That is actually a positive thing and the light in the tunnel. Other part of the problem is actually poor management of training queue.
 

Ancalimé

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Seems to work fine for me....

kBI749F.jpg

I should have said "as intended".

This does work. Try changing default templates to add stuff like self-propelled guns and self-propelled anti-tank brigades and then report back, but before you do make sure the game proceeds at least until 1941-1942. Problems start to show or accumulate as time progresses.

If you still manage to have AI divisions looking like this and with more advanced stuff, tell us how you did it.

Actually, now it takes care of missing equipment. It changes priorities for missing stuff, adds new equipment (like SPART for example) etc. That is actually a positive thing and the light in the tunnel. Other part of the problem is actually poor management of training queue.

The hard part is balancing.
The first thing I did was to make it hard for the AI to do division deployment. That worked beautifully. The AI was able to keep its armies equipped and the game became more challenging and a lot more fun. Obviously now there were a lot less divisions around, which may or may not be what you are looking for.

However, this approach became a problem when I realised China -consistently- could not stand against Japan. When I'm modding the game, I'm trying to do two things:
1) Make it perform better and more realistically.
2) Make it perform historically accurate.
Hence, having China getting knocked out by Japan by 1940-41 each time (something I'm noticing happens a lot with the new patch) was not acceptable for me. So I started tweaking to allow the AI to build enough divisions for Germany to quickly despatch Poland, France and the Low Countries (one thing I did notice making this hard was that the German AI was declaring war against the Low Countries by 22 September and the war was turning into a two front war, making it a lot harder for Germany. So I changed national focus priorities to give it enough time to take care of Poland first) and for China to hold against Japan. This is the hardest part of modding the AI and division deployment defines, at least for me. Because I want the game to progress historically. If I tweaked something a bit too much for example, China would then overwhelm Japanese forces. If I did it a bit too little then Japan would overtake China by ~1941.

Unfortunately before long, I realised the game is just not designed to run historically, nor, it seems, logically. It was just too unpredictable. Also, one thing you change usually has a domino effect that needs further refinements on other fronts. That's why thorough testing is important.
When testing your mods, make sure the game plays until at least 1942, at least. Stuff that seems to be working early game can fuck shit up once the map starts shifting.

With that said; you guys might want to tweak AI naval invasion numbers as well. In cases where Japan is driven out of mainland China, it will keep mounting small scale naval invasions on China and Korea with 1-2 divisions. Sometimes it will succeed at gaining a beachhead and start unloading more and more divisions there. In the meantime, the Chinese army will reorganise and create a front around where Japan landed and will attack, eventually regaining all the naval bases and cutting the Japanese army off. This in turn will result in the loss of all divisions there. This will keep happening and soon enough, Japan will have no divisions left. I mean nothing, zero, nil, naught. At this point, as soon as it deploys a new division, it will mount an invasion and the same thing will keep happening over and over again, like a very shitty groundhog day.
This happens with Britain too. They will keep invading Italy and sometimes they will succeed, but then they will be overwhelmed and will lose all divisions there.
I tried making it harder for the AI to invade overseas, but that doesn't work well in the Pacific, where you want there to be invasions taking place. So I found a compromise by making the AI mount larger invasions to increase their rate of success. This works to an extent. It makes it quite harder for Japan to lose all its divisions, but it also makes Italy easier to be invaded by Britain.

So to conclude; if you're not as compulsive as I am when it comes to historical gameplay, then you may be satisfied with the results. I, unfortunately, cannot be.
 
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vengen

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I had some success reducing division spam by eliminating expeditionary forces and reducing the Production and Industry techs by 50% (production efficiency cap, factory output and max factories in a state).

I played a USA game before and after the changes and by February 1942 was able to build the historical US navy and create a sizable army and air force in both cases. So the production changes aren’t too crippling. At February 1942 in the two games, Germany went from 917 divisions before the changes to 407 divisions after the changes. But, that’s about the best I can do with my limited modding skills; so I’ll play 1.3 a little more, but will probably wait until 1.4 to see how it improves the game before I start playing extensively again.

I’m sure Paradox will continue to improve the game, although it’s going slower than all of us (including Paradox’s staff) would prefer.
 

llib

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500 divisions is not all that unrealistic.
Also, some of those divisions are not full strength divisions.
Also, there were many smaller units than divisions.
And frankly, game doesn't reward keeping extensive manpower reserves - if they however become so thin that they can't be maintained anymore, that's a problem (though kind of similar to what happened historically - increasing divisions counts with inflating division strength).
 
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Thane Solus

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its quite baffling how broken this game AI is. They had the same problem at some point in Hoi 2 or 3 with the AI giving all their divisions to the faction leader but i guess those programmers and ai designers left the company. (found the thread on this forum, quite hilarious)

1940-41 Germany has 600 divisions cause nobody cares (the QA and the Designers clearly dont or they have no idea what they are doing, a bit of both i bet)

Italy sends half of their forces to africa, the rest to germany, UK takes their country quite easily unless you defend it for them with 20-30 guard divisions...

The performance is so atrocious that i believe only 10 to 20% actually finish a game(1948) 9% procent according to steam...

But thank god we got a DLC, when the core game is broken as performance and AI.

People have been posted here with the obvious crystal clear solutions, they got ignored. Good job guys, we buy the game and we must also fix it to be playable. Modable!

- Proper AI templates with supply and requests from AI
- Expeditionary Force system to be similar with Volunteers
- AI must guard its ports for invasions if he doesnt control the SEA and even then guard important places

But once you fix this, we will see the rest more clearly and see that the game was broken from the start, see fighting mechanics, resources and supply.

Now i have to wait another 6 months until you fix something that was able to be done 1 month, and maybe then ill play the complete, finished game if any...

Last game from Paradox for me.
 
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Moser

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I should have said "as intended".

This does work. Try changing default templates to add stuff like self-propelled guns and self-propelled anti-tank brigades and then report back, but before you do make sure the game proceeds at least until 1941-1942. Problems start to show or accumulate as time progresses.

If you still manage to have AI divisions looking like this and with more advanced stuff, tell us how you did it.

Main infantry division -- about 250 of these total after the fall of USSR

7CFSJTT.jpg


Mountain Divisions -- About nine built with four more in queue.

9RjvFrl.jpg



TD and SPAA with MOT and ARM. AI actually likes the 13 iteration better with the TD replaced by an extra SPAA. About 15 divisions of these in the field.

FDjKUkI.jpg


Some iteration of a mechanized template -- none being built at the moment.

jH7u5Uc.jpg


First iteration of a heavy tank division -- None being built in favor of medium ARM

eHrBvLT.jpg


So far so good for the Axis. Germany has its living space, Japan is looking to secure China, and Italy still has a presence in the Mediterranean.

ATDUMTl.jpg


Only equipment shortages seem to be mainly in AA and AT, but promising numbers for division equipment.

dhFHniH.png



If you still manage to have AI divisions looking like this and with more advanced stuff, tell us how you did it.

Not going into too much detail because I worked on this only yesterday evening and this morning, but I extended the default combat width (obviously), reduced the number of ART, AT, and AA equipment in their respective battalions (I believe to more historical numbers), extended division training times, reduced the tungsten resource requirement for AT from 2 to 1, and just added new 30 combat width templates (including starting templates).

So far, I like the results for GER. It's just an experiment but it's quite clear the AI has been improved when it comes to division templates and production.
 
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Kadanz

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Has no one read my posts in the previous weeks about modding for preventing division spam?

Changing the combat width and division components within default templates do not work. I even changed how much the AI pays attention to division width and made it more likely to use the target width that's defined in the templates... nope, does no effect. The AI still sticks to 12-18 division width for most. It is willing to go higher for armoured, but still nowhere near to compete with player divisions.
Changing division components on the other hand results in stuff like creating divisions with X but then not producing that X equipment and deploying divisions short on equipment.

I've done over 100 hours of modding and watching the AI play the game to test the division spam restricting actions and the conclusion I've come to is that the AI is too unpredictable to definitively say that the changes are effective. In most cases it's uneffective and results in the AI to behave weirdly. In other cases it outright breaks the game. For example: you cannot limit AI division deployment without also changing the conditions for national focuses like Anschluss, Sudetenland, Annex Czechoslovakia and Annex Slovakia etc. Those national focuses need a minimum number of manpower in active service before they are triggered.

That's why there aren't many division spam restricting mods out there. We already have figured out how to do it, but because of their unpredictable behaviour and our inability to conclusively say that those changes won't break the game we are not releasing them (at least I am not releasing mine for those reasons. Also I've done other stuff to make the AI perform better in a number of situations -especially naval invasions, they are more successful now- and they need further testing). You can only find such tweaks in more comprehensive mods, where they are more or less guaranteed to work as intended.

Some of you guys should really do some reading on already published material out there. Check out the modding sub-forums. You'll learn a lot.

Besides the condecending and semi-agressive tone, you're pretty much right.

Although it might be worth playing around with these numbers:

Code:
MIN_FIELD_STRENGTH_TO_BUILD_UNITS = 0.7,            -- Cancel unit production if below this to get resources out to units in the field
MIN_MANPOWER_TO_BUILD_UNITS = 0.7,                    -- Cancel unit production if below this to get resources out to units in the field
MANPOWER_FREE_USAGE_THRESHOLD = 500000,            -- If AI has this much manpower he doesn't care about the percentage
MANPOWER_RESERVED_THRESHOLD = 0.25,                    -- The AI will not deploy more units if he goes below this percentage

Notice the part of the free manpower usage, if I'm correct.. as long as the AI has no less than 500k manpower. it will keep producing units and ignore the 25% of maximum manpower threshold.

Let's say I have 10mil recruitable manpower as the soviet union with a 25% reserve treshold ( that's 2,5 mil), it doesn't matter because the defines lua says to keep building units as long as you're above 500k manpower. Assuming I'm understanding this correctly.
 
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GAGA Extrem

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Ancalimé said:
[...]I've done over 100 hours of modding and watching the AI play the game to test the division spam restricting actions and the conclusion I've come to is that the AI is too unpredictable to definitively say that the changes are effective. In most cases it's uneffective and results in the AI to behave weirdly. In other cases it outright breaks the game.[...]
That's pretty much the conclusion we came to as well.
I had been tinkering with templates in November (mostly in my free time since I am not part of the HOI team), creating countless different sets, but none of them was really viable due to the current AI template upgrade behaviour. On top of that we found some very... interesting... issues that affected AI decision making in several other places. So we decided to not change anything (except an obvious error in Infantry templates) until we had actually time to properly re-write the whole AI for this part.

For now the best workaround is probably what the Expert AI mod does: Prescripted and tech-unlocked templates for every nation plus heavy guidelines for AI production depending on deployed equipment.

[...](the QA and the Designers clearly dont or they have no idea what they are doing, a bit of both i bet)[...]
Clearly.
However, this attitude doesn't really help either side.
 
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