How did Conclave ruin the game?

[Robert II]

This is a decent argument for conclave and it's patch ruining ck2. This is just not fun and I won anyway after a decade of fighting. Oh God the ping-ponging the constant ping-ponging with shattered retreat. I'll have nightmares about it.

 

[Soylent Dave]

Shattered Retreat works reasonably well

As i wrote in another topic, this could be true if you're not facing multiple wars at the same time
But, if let's say 3 hosts declare wars on you at the same time, and you have a medium/big kingdom it will be a nightmare to face those wars ( wars that you can easly win without the shattered retreat, like in the previous patch )

It's certainly more difficult fighting on multiple fronts and against multiple enemies with Shattered Retreat than previously, but then that's the sort of situation that's meant to be difficult.

If you're big enough, you can deal with it (and you do get an advantage if you're defending - your enemies literally can't win without besieging you, and your armies will be reinforcing as they march about, because they're in friendly territory)

The system does respond well to tactical & strategic use of your armies (you need to focus your assaults according to a plan that will win the war, rather than constantly reacting to your enemy, and positioning of your forces is even more important given that counter-attacks are likely); wars aren't won with the first big battle any more, but that feels like a good thing to me.

I respect what you have to say and have to agree on most points. There is one thing that frustrates me, though. The lessened ability to improve vassal reactions was not coupled with a rebalancing of their logic.

Yeah, that's a fair criticism. I think it was probably worthwhile reducing the size of opinion bonuses (because vassals were a little to easy to turn from 'loathe' to 'love' previously), but some of the logic does need tweaking, and some of the bonuses / maluses are disproportionate as a result of changes to the rest.

I also think there's more that could be done with the favours system (there have already been plenty of good ideas for this on the forum), which should run in tandem with the opinion system rather than feeling somewhat separate.

 

[mrguymiah]

It's certainly more difficult fighting on multiple fronts and against multiple enemies with Shattered Retreat than previously, but then that's the sort of situation that's meant to be difficult.

If you're big enough, you can deal with it (and you do get an advantage if you're defending - your enemies literally can't win without besieging you, and your armies will be reinforcing as they march about, because they're in friendly territory)

The system does respond well to tactical & strategic use of your armies (you need to focus your assaults according to a plan that will win the war, rather than constantly reacting to your enemy, and positioning of your forces is even more important given that counter-attacks are likely); wars aren't won with the first big battle any more, but that feels like a good thing to me.



Yeah, that's a fair criticism. I think it was probably worthwhile reducing the size of opinion bonuses (because vassals were a little to easy to turn from 'loathe' to 'love' previously), but some of the logic does need tweaking, and some of the bonuses / maluses are disproportionate as a result of changes to the rest.

I also think there's more that could be done with the favours system (there have already been plenty of good ideas for this on the forum), which should run in tandem with the opinion system rather than feeling somewhat separate.

Yeah, I'm suree you've seen all the complains about "10th war to increase council power" and "14th war for elective monarchy"? That's driving me batty. I've got a screenshot of a vassal joining a faction at 100 relations. Afaik, they're not being forced to by a favour or something, either. So it's really just annoying that you literally cannot stop the vassals from factioning. Like, I've long given up conquering territory or raiding because I've spent 200 years just playing whack-a-mole with my vassals. It really kills the fun of the game when you have no forward momentum and are constantly fighting for territory you've already won.

 

[Siggerad]

I serch for news or developers game diaries, but i cant find new changes to the current game, "maybe" pdx are plannig leave the game like this.

 

[gdj]

This is a decent argument for conclave and it's patch ruining ck2. This is just not fun and I won anyway after a decade of fighting. Oh God the ping-ponging the constant ping-ponging with shattered retreat. I'll have nightmares about it.

And yet another screenshot of a "restored" roman empire after probably less than 200 years in-game, and the obligatory whining about threat and shattered retreat. How many screenshots like this are going to be posted until the "pro-blobbing"-faction realizes that it only confirms the dev´s resolve to keep the mechanic to stop nonsense like this? In fact, this screenshot might be a good motivation for any dev to implement even harsher mechanics.

 

[Robert II]

And yet another screenshot of a "restored" roman empire after probably less than 200 years in-game, and the obligatory whining about threat and shattered retreat. How many screenshots like this are going to be posted until the "pro-blobbing"-faction realizes that it only confirms the dev´s resolve to keep the mechanic to stop nonsense like this? In fact, this screenshot might be a good motivation for any dev to implement even harsher mechanics.

If they want to stop blobbing good. But internal mechanics are what to do. Empires should crumble under their own weight. Not be stopped by the entire world joining to stop them taking land. I say stopped but they don't stop me. Even with everyone from the abbasids to the Indians against you it's still easy to beat the crap ai at war it's just a slog with the tiny amounts of warscore gained.

I'm not pro blob. I'm pro fun. Sitting on my arse waiting for infamy to tick down is not fun. Especially since internal management is easy. I could revoke titles and rebalance my realm but why bother? My vassals all love me even though I have mediocre stats and the lunatic trait.

 

[gdj]

If they want to stop blobbing good. But internal mechanics are what to do. Empires should crumble under their own weight. Not be stopped by the entire world joining to stop them taking land. I say stopped but they don't stop me. Even with everyone from the abbasids to the Indians against you it's still easy to beat the crap ai at war it's just a slog with the tiny amounts of warscore gained.

Sure, but only because you are obviously a very skilled player. AI empires on the other hand are stopped by threat and pacts, or at least slowed down in their expansion to a degree that makes a real difference. I havent seen Sicily eaten whole by Byzantium or Aquitaine swallowed alive by the HRE since Conclave.

I do agree though that internal mechanics like penalties for levies and taxes for over-growing would be better.

 

[Robert II]

Sure, but only because you are obviously a very skilled player. AI empires on the other hand are stopped by threat and pacts, or at least slowed down in their expansion to a degree that makes a real difference. I havent seen Sicily eaten whole by Byzantium or Aquitaine swallowed alive by the HRE since Conclave.

I do agree though that internal mechanics like penalties for levies and taxes for over-growing would be better.

Well conclave did help stop blobbing but it also made the ai much more aggressive so Asturias and Africa struggle even more than usual which is bad.

Big penalties on taxes and levies would be a good start but the best way would be making factions have some damn threat. They're so toothless currently and have been for a long time. I enjoy losing in ck2 but it just happens so rarely.

 

[Siggerad]

Maybe a new mechanic with bonus to AI in different difficult levels like other games, or threat give bonus (event) in manpower and money to your close neighbors.

 

[riadach]

Yeah, I'm suree you've seen all the complains about "10th war to increase council power" and "14th war for elective monarchy"? That's driving me batty. I've got a screenshot of a vassal joining a faction at 100 relations. Afaik, they're not being forced to by a favour or something, either. So it's really just annoying that you literally cannot stop the vassals from factioning. Like, I've long given up conquering territory or raiding because I've spent 200 years just playing whack-a-mole with my vassals. It really kills the fun of the game when you have no forward momentum and are constantly fighting for territory you've already won.

Vassals could always join factions at 100 opinion, if someone had used their spymaster to scheme against them. They can also do so now if someone has a favour on them.

What are you doing to deal with factions?

 

[Maeldun]

Vassals could always join factions at 100 opinion, if someone had used their spymaster to scheme against them. They can also do so now if someone has a favour on them.

Favors don't apply to people who don't own the Conclave DLC - the mechanic doesn't exist. Also, you can't compel someone to start a faction - only to join one. In 2.5.x, vassals routinely head factions despite having a 100 opinion of their liege, without Conclave (i.e. no favors), so your reasoning doesn't explain the broken behavior of the current game version.

 

[Audoucet]

And yet another screenshot of a "restored" roman empire after probably less than 200 years in-game, and the obligatory whining about threat and shattered retreat. How many screenshots like this are going to be posted until the "pro-blobbing"-faction realizes that it only confirms the dev´s resolve to keep the mechanic to stop nonsense like this? In fact, this screenshot might be a good motivation for any dev to implement even harsher mechanics.

Firstly : They sold us, you know, for money, the restored Roman Empire mechanism, so they shouldn't complain about it.

Secondly : There will ALWAYS be people optimising and gaming everything, and the day the game is balanced for them, it will suck for everyone else.

Thirdly : This screenshot actually goes against the developers decisions. It shows that coalitions and shattered retreats are useless, as they are just boring.

Finally : Pro-blob aren't the ones to complain against 2.5, most of the time, it's everyone else, the guys screwd because of people thinking that the game is too easy. You said yourself that the guy posting the screenshot is a very skilled player.

 

[riadach]

Favors don't apply to people who don't own the Conclave DLC - the mechanic doesn't exist. Also, you can't compel someone to start a faction - only to join one. In 2.5.x, vassals routinely head factions despite having a 100 opinion of their liege, without Conclave (i.e. no favors), so your reasoning doesn't explain the broken behavior of the current game version.

We were talking about vassals joining factions at 100 which they could always do due to faction scheming.

 

[Maeldun]

We were talking about vassals joining factions at 100 which they could always do due to faction scheming.

And under the current version, vassals can join or head factions even at 100 opinion without being compelled to do so by a spymaster or a favor. It has nothing to do with Conclave - this behavior is tied to the 2.5.x patch.

 

[riadach]

And under the current version, vassals can join or head factions even at 100 opinion without being compelled to do so by a spymaster or a favor. It has nothing to do with Conclave - this behavior is tied to the 2.5.x patch.

Did I say it had anything to do with conclave? I was arguing the joining a faction at 100 behaviour has been in the game since factions were produced.

You have produced nothing to demonstrate that that behaviour is solely due to the 2.5 patch but you'll disagree with this post nonetheless, despite the fact there's nothing factually erroneous in it.

 

[Audoucet]

Did I say it had anything to do with conclave? I was arguing the joining a faction at 100 behaviour has been in the game since factions were produced.

You have produced nothing to demonstrate that that behaviour is solely due to the 2.5 patch but you'll disagree with this post nonetheless, despite the fact there's nothing factually erroneous in it.

I can agree with you, but from what I read, it's not in the same proportions. In a 2.4.5 game, a vassal at 100 positive opinion with only join a faction in some specific context. As a non-de-jure vassal, mainly.

 

[Agnitio Ex Mach]

And yet another screenshot of a "restored" roman empire after probably less than 200 years in-game, and the obligatory whining about threat and shattered retreat. How many screenshots like this are going to be posted until the "pro-blobbing"-faction realizes that it only confirms the dev´s resolve to keep the mechanic to stop nonsense like this? In fact, this screenshot might be a good motivation for any dev to implement even harsher mechanics.

No, it's just proof that trying to nerf the player doesn't actually do anything. Time should be spent on a smarter AI, not trying to arbitrarily limit players in a time period where coalitions hardly existed.

 

[Melichai]

I'm playing with Conclave and tbh given I paid for a product to increase my enjoyment of a game, I'm struggling to see the value. I've disabled coalitions via a handy mod because that is just a game breakingly bad idea. Shattered retreats...meh. I just don't care: defeat an army, get 6 months to siege a barony and then defeat their much smaller army again. Where is the challenge? Players don't start battles they can lose in the first place, and the actually *increasing* the flailing around the AI does in AI vs. AI wars is bemusing from a player enjoyment perspective. Hard to believe from an Ironman perspective that you are forced to watch two counts fight it out in a 10 year long saga of 200 vs. 200 battles and shattered retreats so you can change a succession law. The council itself...grand, I guess, but again surrendering more of the player experience to AI insanity. Let alone it seems to have broken the tool-tips. The whole DLC seems to be about nerfing the player.

I guess I play games to be escape reality and have fun so maybe Conclave is not for me?

 

[Talq]

And under the current version, vassals can join or head factions even at 100 opinion without being compelled to do so by a spymaster or a favor. It has nothing to do with Conclave - this behavior is tied to the 2.5.x patch.

Vassals also could always ('briefly') head factions even at 100 opinion, because they don't immediately leave on hitting that opinion, they wait sometimes up to a month, and they can automatically be made head if the previous faction leader quits, again until the next time that faction is assessed by the game. Given that I've yet to see it affect gameplay, I've always left it at mild curiousity.

At this point, you're just fear-mongering. Creating a rash of false and mistaken bug reports doesn't actually help anybody.

so you can change a succession law.

realm peace. It is an irony in the context of your complain that changing succession laws is easier in conclave than ever before.

 

[Robert II]

realm peace. It is an irony in the context of your complain that changing succession laws is easier in conclave than ever before.

Another bad mechanic. The king can only enforce peace once a decade because reasons. And he can only enforce it with the councils consent. And the option dissappears completely if you've abolished the council. So the absolute ruler can't stop infighting. Makes sense. A law to outlaw infighting with a -5 or 10 modifier with all vassals would have worked fine. So would stealing the game of thrones mod system. But no instead we get this strange video game button.