How china DLC would be named?

[Hikuran]

The Confucianism reform in Song is a tricky one.
Since Confucianism is not a typical religion which contains god(s) so its reform was not to discuss rituals or deity profile but its restrains on believers.

Like I mentioned above, Confucianism is about asking people to behave according to rules set, so the Divine will be happy and society will prosper.
Zhu altered it and added more rules.

Example:
Before Zhu's reform, it was no big deal for a Widow to marry again, she could marry another man on her own will.
But after it, Zhu criticize that such deeds was a symbol of Lust and Betrayal. Once married, the wife should be loyal to her husband forever. After husband death the wife should swore an oath of celibacy and never marry again. On the contrary, man could marry again. So this reform marked the begin of male chauvinism in China.
Gladly such reform is not forcefully enacted by law, most women can still marry again, but they will suffer from gossip and dislike. (a general opinion debuff in game)

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

China didn't have religion.

 

[Phibs]

Religion is pretty far down the list of problems with a china expansion, really.

 

[ahhheygao]

China didn't have religion.

I know you're being sarcastic and merely jesting, but since this is an actual popular misconception:

Even if we were to exclude the Confucian, Taoist, and 100+ schools of ethics and philosophy, the Chinese populace still practiced ancestral worship AND pagan polytheism (dubbed Shenism by Westerners) alongside those philosophies. That's also not counting Chan Buddhism, which was already deeply rooted and significant in the Late-Tang dynasty.

 

[SBolshevik]

As for Emperor himself, religion is indeed a tool, eastern Religion normally don't have religious leader or simply is secular leader him/herself. No pope or Caliph to restrict powerful lords like in Europe so they don't pose much of a place in politics, more in daily like of people (both commoners and nobles)

In that a China expansion would basically have to diverge heavily from the game's main principle of religions being the main factor behind gameplay mechanics (itself a really stupid idea in many cases).

 

[ahhheygao]

In that a China expansion would basically have to diverge heavily from the game's main principle of religions being the main factor behind gameplay mechanics (itself a really stupid idea in many cases).

Like @Phibs, I don't consider religion an obstacle when it comes to depicting China in CK2, especially after seeing how the Dharmic religions were modeled to co-exist. Just dump all of the Chinese characters under a Chinese religion group that consists of basic Pagan Shenism and Chan Buddhism, and then just give them specific philosophy/sects to follow like Confucianism and Taoism.

While Holy War mass-revoke CBs against outside realms aren't entirely appropriate, a forced religion conversion + tributary combo CB can still be used to simulate Sinicization and vassalization of nomadic hordes and barbarian tribes. There were religious persecutions against Buddhist (or Taoists), so religious title revocation and opinion malus can stay.

Some of the more mechanical obstacles are troublesome, like for instance the simple matter of dynastic family name. In my own personal test mod as well as most China-based mods, I found it extremely annoying to see 10+ unrelated dynasties all share the same family name, "Zhang", "Wu", "Lu", etc., so a possible work-around may be to introduce a new dynasty name generation mechanics that combines location along with family name (e.g. "Wu of Nanking" or "Liu of Chengdu").

Like how Iqta allows Muslim characters to hold Castle and Temple holdings with no penalty, whatever Chinese government system PDS comes up with must allow Chinese characters to hold Castle and City holdings without penalty and do not trigger inland republic or merchant republics. Have the default county main barony holding to be Cities, but since some "Feudal" type relations still existed in China at times, allow regular Feudal government to also exist. A certain number of major ruling clans/families would keep their family holdings off-map, similar to merchant republic or tribal/nomadic clans.

China is doable with dev resources, but unless the optimization of Reaper's Due placate even the toaster players, China still shouldn't happen.

 

[orochi2k]

If the optimization of Reaper's Due is really based on killing lots of characters...then....oh...no....the population of China

 

[killerbee256]

This is an ancient and very beloved tradition here on the forum, that before and after every DLC release there has to be at least one "China DLC" thread starting a traditional forum civil war, where pro-China camp fight anti-China camp while innocent people suffer. It usually start from innocent question, like “Is it time for China now?”. Then the people with calculators come and whine that game isn’t optimized enough to run on their ZX spectrum. Next the pro-China people start quoting the wise words of prophet/game director, Doomdark, how he said many times that he wants to add china. Then anti-China camp ask who is this “game director” to say what game should looks like. They point out that game is called “Crusader Kings” for a reason. For which the pro-china people quote the words of prophet/game director, Doomdark, who said that he regret ever calling the game “Crusader kings”. Then the “Engine” experts come in and say how the “engine” can’t handle China. Basically I thought that word “china” is banned on this forum by now.

There is no such thing as joke thread when it comes to China here. It goes real very fast.

Except now we have a few china mods that are mostly playable for people to test if they can run a map with china on their pcs.

 

[Pete0714]

Crash to desktop...

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

These are the facts:

1: China would kill the engine

2: The societal structure of China would either
a) need a new government type
b) not be properly represented.
If we introduced a new government type, it'd have to be dependent on culture, and/or religion. However, one interesting idea is to have a specific government type associated with a title.

3: Chinese Religion could feasibly be entered into the game. Buddhism would have to be broken up, which has been needed since HL came out.

4: Not much would stop China from conquering the world. If we tried to contain them with terrain modifiers and attrition, it'd also be impossible to invade China. That'd make it an area that doesn't impact the rest of the game very much.

5: If China was added, the other Oriental countries would have to be added in as well. Japan is the only one that I think could be modeled in the game.

6: This would require another rework of the Mongols. China being added would also add Mongolia Proper to the map, the mongols would have to invade china, and then invade Europe.

 

[ahhheygao]

These are the facts:

I don't see many "facts" listed, though I do agree with most of your positions.

1: China would kill the engine

Don't just recycle the same ol' talking points--at least test if the major optimization from Reaper's Due lives up to all the hype.

2: The societal structure of China would either
a) need a new government type
If we introduced a new government type, it'd have to be dependent on culture, and/or religion. However, one interesting idea is to have a specific government type associated with a title.

As if this hasn't already been done before with Iqta.

3: Chinese Religion could feasibly be entered into the game. Buddhism would have to be broken up, which has been needed since HL came out.

Indeed. This is overdue.

4: Not much would stop China from conquering the world. If we tried to contain them with terrain modifiers and attrition, it'd also be impossible to invade China. That'd make it an area that doesn't impact the rest of the game very much.

The same very factors that prevented China from blobbing everywhere: PERSISTENT raiders and invasion threat from powerful neighboring nomads and tribes, internal division and strife, decaying power of the emperor and weakened central authority due to corruption and mismanagment by powerful vassals/factions/cliques, and the ever-present danger of mass rebellions to overthrow the ruling dynasty.

It's true that in CK2 we never have to worry about seasonal levy release for harvesting and the vacuum of the able-bodied men, but perhaps the newly introduced prosperity/poverty system can be modified to reflect this and lead to massive peasant unrest and rebellions if Chinese troops aren't stationed at home and at the borders.

5: If China was added, the other Oriental countries would have to be added in as well. Japan is the only one that I think could be modeled in the game.

Because Japan is a special snowflake folded a thousand times and the only feudal-ish government in Eastern Asia, amirite?

6: This would require another rework of the Mongols. China being added would also add Mongolia Proper to the map, the mongols would have to invade china, and then invade Europe.

This is true.

 

[SBolshevik]

Because Japan is a special snowflake folded a thousand times and the only feudal-ish government in Eastern Asia, amirite?

Somebody's interested in something you aren't? Oh gods, the travesty!

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Because Japan is a special snowflake folded a thousand times and the only feudal-ish government in Eastern Asia, amirite?

The governments in Indochina were much more centralized, I can't comment on Korea.

I do know that Japan had a system that is more similar to the Feudal system. China had system that was more related to the Imperial Byzantine system.

 

[ahhheygao]

Somebody's interested in something you aren't? Oh gods, the travesty!

Oh no, I definitely want Japan as well if China is in and play the significant Genpei War. This was merely to remind you folks why your "lol why not just do stand-alone Sengoku in China" doesn't fly--Western audience and player-base actually have strong favor and interest in Japan (this is a good thing) to warrant a stand-alone release.

I do know that Japan had a system that is more similar to the Feudal system. China had system that was more related to the Imperial Byzantine system.

Chinese dynasties at peak power, yes. Once they fracture into warring states, you have Feudal-ish governments everywhere until centralized again.

 

[deadhand13]

...at least test if the major optimization from Reaper's Due lives up to all the hype. ...

I feel like I've heard that one before...

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I definitely want Japan as well and play the significant Genpei War. This is to remind you folks why your "lol why not just do stand-alone Sengoku in China" doesn't fly--Western audience and player-base actually have strong favor and interest toward Japan (this is a good thing).

I see your point. I just did not believe that I should discuss Korea, Indochina, and many of the other cultures in Eastern Asia simply because I don't have a complex understanding of them.

I do know a lot more about Japan, which is why I brought them up.

I'm not saying that those other regions don't have a more Feudal-Style government.

 

[ahhheygao]

I feel like I've heard that one before...

Heh, ain't that the truth. While we should remain skeptical until we see it in action for ourselves, at least this time the devs have backed up their hype so far with very impressive time-lapses videos as well as the streams' preview videos (albeit in restricted bookmarks).

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

Oh no, I definitely want Japan as well if China is in and play the significant Genpei War. This was merely to remind you folks why your "lol why not just do stand-alone Sengoku in China" doesn't fly--Western audience and player-base actually have strong favor and interest in Japan (this is a good thing) to warrant a stand-alone release.


Chinese dynasties at peak power, yes. Once they fracture into warring states, you have Feudal-ish governments everywhere until centralized again.

That'd be difficult to implement.

We could have the government tied to a Culture/Religion (Like Iqta), but that wouldn't work.

During these fractures, there'd have to be some kind of trigger to make it Feudal.

I'm not fully aware of all the causes of these fractures, but possibly there could be an event of some kind?

 

[Brodacious]

Crusader Kings 2: Dynasties of Heaven(DoH)

 

[Keizer Harm]

That'd be difficult to implement.

We could have the government tied to a Culture/Religion (Like Iqta), but that wouldn't work.

During these fractures, there'd have to be some kind of trigger to make it Feudal.

I'm not fully aware of all the causes of these fractures, but possibly there could be an event of some kind?

if(rank == emperor && capital IN region_China) {
government = mandate_of_heaven
}
Sorry for the ugly code, it's been ages since I looked at the game files.