How can I make Capitalists without having any to begin with?

[dharper]

I just played a short game as Prussia and found it manageable (stayed in third or fourth place all game). Then I decided to play Bolivia. Completely different game. No factories, no craftsmen...and no capitalists. The first two I could eventually deal with, even managing to get a liberal democratic government in power around 1880 (tips on doing so earlier would be appreciated) to start getting immigrants. But I never got a single capitalist POP, and I can't find any way to do so except conquering a province that's got some already - which South America seems to lack.

How do you create Capitalist POPs in your empire without having any? I can't promote other POPs to capitalists, and if there's an event which converts some of your clerks or aristocrats, I can't find it. Am I missing something, or am I doomed to play with state capitalism and planned economy dictatorships if I want to industrialize?

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

First convert a pop to clerk and then you can convert the clerk to capitalist. Only clerks can be made capitalists.

 

[lizardo]

First you save up some money, 20k is a safe bet.

Have on hand enough materials for converting a pop to a clerk, and the clerk to a capitalist. Use your largest pop to do this.

You can make your clerk earlier to get some research income but you risk emigration of the pop.

Set your wealthy tax to 0, make sure you have building materials on hand.

I have no idea if splitting capitalists will make any difference in their willingness or ability to build but I do it.

Try to keep them in the one state you build your factories.

 

[OHgamer]

I would recommend holding off converting a pop to capitalist until you have developed your nation a bit, railroads in particular. Factories in nations with no rails tend to be very inefficient, especially in nations with low literacy (literacy affects clerk efficiency) so I would suggest using the state to build the first, and preferably the second, level of railways first. This will help raise efficiency of RGO production, helping get your export income growing so that capis have decent daily income, and the states you do get factories built in will have a higher efficiency rating, making the factories built more profitable.

In the end, it only matters being #1 on the last day of the game, so there is no need to rush industrialization, especially in less developed nations with no infrastructure, low literacy and little plurality. build up the exports of RGOs first and then allow the profits from that be the pivot to begin industrialization.

 

[sbr]

This will help raise efficiency of RGO production, helping get your export income growing so that capis have decent daily income, and the states you do get factories built in will have a higher efficiency rating, making the factories built more profitable.

I have been meaning to ask this question, but keep forgetting. o

Railroads do improve the efficiency of RGOs as well as factories?

 

[orimazd]

Yes.

 

[LlywelynII]

...so there is no need to rush industrialization, especially in less developed nations with no infrastructure, low literacy and little plurality.

Erm... with respect, yes, there is.

Building up a single large capi pop and following up his railroads and factories with some large clerks (plus limiting suffrage to wealthy) is how dh could've gotten that liberal party into power and started his immigrant boom much earlier. Plus it lets you save your machine parts and income in the early game.

Then again, if you try that and your capi isn't pulling in enough income to do anything yet... then, yeah, reload your save-game and use your money to build up your infrastructure first.

 

[dharper]

Thanks! I had totally blanked on upgrading a clerk - probably the one POP type I hadn't bothered to check, since I gained them so late in my first game. o

I managed to earn quite a decent income in the 1840s, so I upgraded one farmer to a clerk, then to a capitalist in each of three states; with 0% tax, each gained between 0.5 and 10.0 pounds per day (not sure why some are richer than others), and Bolivia was covered in level 2 railroad and many factories (mostly empty) by 1850. Overall Bolivia's exports have risen only by a small fraction, and many factories are simply not that profitable, so I have been focusing on RGO production for now, but it's nice to have those capitalists working for me.

Is there any reason to prefer upgrading a clerk POP of 40,000 over one of 1,000? I'm not sure how efficiency works for capitalists.

At this point, getting immigrants is my biggest issue - to fill nearly-empty RGOs and factories and rebuild my army. Due to revolts among my conservatives my soldier POPs have fallen from about 5% of my population to 1%, and it's grinding my army into dust. I can't seem to change any POPs to soldiers, either - the button is greyed out and the pop-up box tells me that I need only 750 pounds to upgrade them - which I have. I suspect it's not telling me that a liberal, anti-war government can't convert POPs into soldiers...? Ironically, many of my POPs are pacifistic right now, probably because my military spending is set to maximum just to keep my three remaining divisions at half-strength. Ironically, I think I may have to get rid of my entire army to convince my POPs that military spending would be a good thing and vote in a conservative government...which, ironically, would also be nice to add social programs, which my liberals can't do.

 

[Sarmatian]

Yes, there is. The more capis in a single pop the quicker they earn money, which means that POP of 50,000 capis will build factories more often than 10,000 capis POP.

The most important thing to remember with South American nations is that immigration is the key. To get immigration, you need liberal party in power, with full citizenship and pluralism/secularized, to be a democracy, have decent health care and plurality...

Americas get an immigration bonus so you may see immigration with Con Monarchy or limited citizenship but if you have all of those above you will literally be drowning in immigrants.

One strategy if you have a Presidential Dictatorship or Monarchy is to wait a while before you enact reforms. Raise taxes (even at 70-80%, don't be afraid) and tariffs and save some money. Build one or two factories in states that have largest POPs and turn then into clerks to get research bonus. It is very important not to build high tech factories from day one. Steel factory is a safe bet, they bring profit even if you have to import both coal and iron, and it will help you build railroads as steel is scarce in the world market until 1850's. Continue researching technologies that give you higher production efficiency and build level 2 railroads everywhere. Then when your industrial base is decent (in 1948) put socialist party in power to get +25 plurality and enact some social reforms, most notably health care. After that happens, switch to democracy and because of your high number of Clerks you will most often get liberal government in power which will give you another 25 plurality. Now you have liberal government, 50 or more plurality, decent production efficiency, decent health care and all immigrants your economy can find work for...

Concerning converting your POP's to soldiers - there are two possible reasons why the button is greyed out.

1. You don't have materials needed - hover your mouse pointer over that option it should tell you if you lack some materials (small arms, wine etc...)

2. Your party in power is either Pacifist or Anti Military. In both you can't promote POPs to soldiers... Switch to either Pro Military or Jingoist and you will be able. Don't forget, democracies work wonder with immigration but they have very serious drawbacks - like you can't build more soldiers and you have revolts all over or you're involved in a war, because the party in power is Pacifist or Anti Military. Or you're making most of your money from tariffs and citizens elect a free trade party... That's the beauty of Victoria, the world is so vibrant and alive, full of good choices/bad choices that aren't always recognizable. And did you make a good choice or a bad choice often isn't only up to you. More often than not it depends how things in the rest of the world play out....

P.S. Don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out exactly the way you planned for the first time. You may end up with revolts all over your nation, but you'll get it right in the end. One of the important things is to set up your country as good immigration destination in 1853, when Crimean War starts. That's always a long war, involving several Great Powers, whose POP's will want to emigrate somewhere where they can work in peace. If you put your country as the best possible destination, you're in the green...

 

[OHgamer]

keep in mind one thing, very large capi POPs can have problems building up reserves later in game when expensive new lux goods like automobiles come onto the market. You need to ensure that your capis are making very good reserve growth by the late 1880s so that when automobiles do come onto the market, and your capis go to buy them to fill their luxury needs, they still have daily income left over to put into reserve for economic construction use. Otherwise you'll potentially end up in the dreaded "luxury loop" where POPs make enough income to build reserves to 100, then go to buy their luxury needs, which combined are more expensive than their daily income, thus knocking their reserves back down below 100 and starting the buildup process again. And again. And again until such time as daily income is greater than daily cost of luxury needs and reserve growth above 100 can recommence.

 

[Sarmatian]

keep in mind one thing, very large capi POPs can have problems building up reserves later in game when expensive new lux goods like automobiles come onto the market.

Are you sure that's connected with size? I've had those problems with Russia in the 1880's or 90's but it applied to both 10,000 capi POPs and and 80,000 capi POPs...

Fortunately, gaslights even hit, giving me +10% workhour efficiency and they started making money again

 

[OHgamer]

Are you sure that's connected with size? I've had those problems with Russia in the 1880's or 90's but it applied to both 10,000 capi POPs and and 80,000 capi POPs...

Fortunately, gaslights even hit, giving me +10% workhour efficiency and they started making money again

size is depending also on your export income. If you have a lot of capis, even smaller sized capi pops may not get enough income to be able to purchase what they need, given that capi income is shared among all the capi POPs, so more capis eating from the pie means smaller pieces of pie for each. A very big capi POP will have a large need to fill, but if they are the only ones getting the capi's share of income, then it will be more likely they'll have the income compared to having a slew of smaller capi POPs all taking pieces from the same capi income pie. And of course if you have a lot of capis, and they are a mix of big and small, the problems will be even more compounded.

If you have a single capi pop that gets all the income then they'll not have to share anything and it will be easier for them to afford the more expensive lux goods later on. This is why many would argue the best strategy is to concentrate industrialization in one or two states rather than spreading it out, and converting POPs in the non industrial states to craftsman/clerks and letting internal migration bring the workers to the factories rather than the factories to the workers.