How can I form Ruthenia Tsardom in EU4?

[Newfoundland(2)]

According to the official wiki, any nation with Russian Principality government can turn into a Tsardom by forming Russia or Ruthenia. So all I need to do is to start as a East Slavic minor nation in 1444 and occupy Ukraine territory in order to activate the Forming Ruthenia decision.

But that's just not seemingly possible. All minor East Slavic nations in 1444 are either a vassal of Muscovy or too weak to conquer anyone. Even if we disregard the Muscovy problem, Ukraine territory is under Lithuanian occupation. I once tried to conquer Lithuanian land with Novgorod in 1450s and it was a very tough opponent. I don't think I can defeat Lithuania with nations like Odoyev even if Poland didn't form union with Lithuania.

I have formed Ruthenia with Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth by changing primary culture for some times. It was easy actually. But that Ruthenia is simply a common western kingdom with elective monarchy like Poland. Start as Muscovy and change culture into Ruthenia is the only way I can come up with, but that's not even slightly reasonable. Joining HRE with Catholic Ming is less weird than that.

 

[heliostellar]

I’ve attempted it a few times, but it’s either a tedious luck game with a small nation like Ryzan or it’s a suboptimal choice to take with Lithuania. It’s unfortunate to not see it more often. You could fire up Lithuania and release yourself as a Ukrainian minor. Ideally you want to have a situation where Poland rejects the PU if you’re playing as a minor.

Poland and Lithuania both have better ideas than Ruthenia IMO, so whenever I get enough success in one of their games, I end up changing my mind on tag switching.

 

[Mrkew]

Starting as a vassal of Muscovy and conquering all of Russia and Lithuania is not impossible. I would argue that it's easier than starting as Novgorod for a newer player.

 

[iquabakaner]

Lithuania breaks up on its own if you're lucky.

 

[heliostellar]

Lithuania breaks up on its own if you're lucky.

Hardly ever... many years and patches ago it did, but I very rarely see that anymore.

 

[iquabakaner]

Hardly ever... many years and patches ago it did, but I very rarely see that anymore.

I saw it in the last patch when I played Muscovy, before I ever fought them. Made my game went really easy.

 

[Newfoundland(2)]

Starting as a vassal of Muscovy and conquering all of Russia and Lithuania is not impossible. I would argue that it's easier than starting as Novgorod for a newer player.

Perhaps, I've never tried that after all.
To be honest, I am not an expert in diplomatic activities. The first Paradox game I played is HOI3, so I am used to rely on my military tactic and strategies in each game, while subtle diplomatic actions are never my focus. For all Paradox strategic games, I rarely play as a vassal. I always select independent nations even in CK2. Maybe that limited my thought.

By the way, players can always defeat Muscovy with Novgorod on battlefield if they can take the advantage of climate and terrain. AI commander is not so smart dealing with Novgorodian winter. As for starting as a Muscovite vassal... Well, it's worth a shot.

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

You can always start as Lithuania and release a vassal. This makes it so the PLC union doesn't happen, and depending on which vassal to choose to play as, it can put you in a pretty strong position. Polotsk has a bunch of cores, Smolensk has wacky awesome ideas, Kiev is in the right geographical location, etc. Lots of potential there to become Ruthenia.

 

[DarthDanMan]

I'm pretty sure that Ruthenia doesn't give the Tsardom Goverment unless they changed it after Third Rome without me noticing. Forming Ruthenia as a Russian Princepality does nothing and you stay at duchy rank. While forming it as any other Goverment type grants Empire rank I believe.

 

[otaats]

Pick Lithuania, release and play as Ruthenia?

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

I saw it in the last patch when I played Muscovy, before I ever fought them. Made my game went really easy.

That's pretty lucky in my experience. The last time I saw Lithuania break up was a France into Roman empire run I did. Polotsk broke free and actually managed to do well before I fed them to my client state. I also saw the USA form in that game and Delhi ate most of central Russia., you know, normal EU4 stuff

 

[heliostellar]

Pick Lithuania, release and play as Ruthenia?

Ruthenia has no cores from the 1444 bookmark

 

[iquabakaner]

I'm pretty sure that Ruthenia doesn't give the Tsardom Goverment unless they changed it after Third Rome without me noticing. Forming Ruthenia as a Russian Princepality does nothing and you stay at duchy rank. While forming it as any other Goverment type grants Empire rank I believe.

It does give the Tsardom Government.
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Ruthenia

 

[heliostellar]

It does give the Tsardom Government.
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Ruthenia

No, it converts Veche Republic or Russian Principality to Tsardom (re-read the wiki closely), but if you don't have those governments you will not become Tsar. You will get Empire rank either way though.

 

[ChloePech]

I do it as Ryazan and Odoyev (with culture shifting obviously) pretty regularly, which is fun. Its easy to PU Muscovy with them as well, as Odoyev starts with the same dynasty. I do with Ruthenia had more flavor, though- it only makes sense for there to be more (positive) consequences for the reunification of the Rus territories under the Rus instead of Lithuania or the hordes, and it having missions and events relating perhaps to its relationship to the northern Rus and Poland would be of interest.

 

[MiniaAr]

So this means that forming Ruthenia as Lithuania, you won't get Tsardom goverment.

But if you form it with any of the Ruthenian principalties, you'll get it as they start with the Russian principalty government.
Those are: Polotsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Chernigov, Zaporovzhia, Galicia-Volhynia.

So the "release and play" as vassal is probably the way to go there. Alternatively, starting as Odoyev or Ryazan, you should be able to switch to ruthenian culture pretty quickly, and thus be able to form Ruthenia with the Russian Principalty government.