How can I fight off a bigger enemy?

[Cal585]

Thought I'd give a Byzantium run a go, despite not being a great player. So far managed alright, taking the Ottomans European possessions and splitting Anatolia with the Mamluks. The problem is now in 1600 the Commonwealth are steamrolling everything, being the strongest nation in the game and have permanent claims on the Bulgaria region. Austria and Hungary have joined me in the defensive war (but not Russia the cowards) against them and Tuscany and we barely outnumber them combined. They are way ahead of us in military tech (I'm 14, they're 16). Even fighting them on favourable terrain they seem to just steamroll me due to my inferior units and half morale. I do have most defensive ideas as about the only thing going for me.

Is there anything I can do at this point or is this just GG? The only thing I can think of would be taking heaps of loans, buying every Merc I can get and hopefully drown them in bodies. Any advice from anyone who knows what they're doing with this game?

 

[holyvigil]

Thought I'd give a Byzantium run a go, despite not being a great player. So far managed alright, taking the Ottomans European possessions and splitting Anatolia with the Mamluks. The problem is now in 1600 the Commonwealth are steamrolling everything, being the strongest nation in the game and have permanent claims on the Bulgaria region. Austria and Hungary have joined me in the defensive war (but not Russia the cowards) against them and Tuscany and we barely outnumber them combined. They are way ahead of us in military tech (I'm 14, they're 16). Even fighting them on favourable terrain they seem to just steamroll me due to my inferior units and half morale. I do have most defensive ideas as about the only thing going for me.

Is there anything I can do at this point or is this just GG? The only thing I can think of would be taking heaps of loans, buying every Merc I can get and hopefully drown them in bodies. Any advice from anyone who knows what they're doing with this game?

Don't fight them if you are that far behind in mil tech. Take a few forts, lose the war and get a better military by: catching up in tech, maybe getting an idea or two, getting a better ally, and expanding towards your weaker neighbors.

 

[Howl]

Let them occupy Hungary and sign peace by giving away Hungarian provinces. Hopefully they will be happy with some of those. Don't let Hungary separate peace out though.

 

[Cal585]

So give them the wargoal and then try and buy off the rest of the score with allied land? I'll give that a shot and see what happens.

 

[Kanem Bornu]

Get behind a defensive (mountain) fort and let your allies do everything they can. Hopefully with some war exhaustion they will get closer to peacing out, and if you stay defensive you might be able to win some battles to keep them from occupying you too badly.

I agree with the other people here - try to sacrifice Hungarian lands in the peace deal. They have permaclaims so they will want them once they occupy them.

The difference between mil tech 14 and 16 is massive (more morale, tactics, artillery fire and shock), and Poland actually has good military ideas unlike Byzantium.

 

[The Tsar]

at mil lvl 15 u get +1 morale thats why they are stomping you

 

[generalis Julius Caesar]

My tip is to try to never get in a place where a large nation DOWs you. However once in a Netherlands game I was still small ((About 35k men)) and it was 1600. England dowed me ((They had better mil tech and almost 2 times more men)), however I fought them down by engaging in battle with half of my army, it weakened their moral. Then I attacked with the other half, to weaken moral more, that managed to beat the army they had sent ((About 45k, they didn't have enough transports for the full army)). After that the war score was in my favor ((about 10%)) and England wanted to offer white peace. I said no even though my army was still reinforcing ((About 10k men left)) and England sent an other army of 30k men ((The rest were needed in the colonies I guess)). After their movement locked on their naval landing I sent my whole army ((About 29k)) and managed to defeat them in a costly battle. Because of that, I was able to win the war and get trade power and reparations along with a lump sum of about 200 ducats. My advice might not be applicable in this war, but then again, it might. If you could retreat your army behind the straits of Constantinople and hid until the PLC attacks you might stand a chance at beating them. If you loose just let them annex part of Hungry and maybe pay a few ducats if that is needed to push them over. Best of luck ((I would love to see where this game goes BTW. It is so rare to see Byzantium get something done.))

 

[Kanem Bornu]

at mil lvl 15 u get +1 morale thats why they are stomping you

Well, sure. It's also Poland vs Byzantium. Poland has one of the better military idea sets in the game. Byz... not so much.

 

[atwix]

Let them occupy Hungary and sign peace by giving away Hungarian provinces. Hopefully they will be happy with some of those. Don't let Hungary separate peace out though.

this and only this.. provided they want any of your allies land.

*always* ally the nations that your biggest dangerous enemy wants as vital interest or strategic interest. Sell those allies out, grow in power, get 100 absolutism, and strike when PLC is in big war, calling all allies on favours, after flagging all your enemy land as vital apart from allies vital land.

 

[Cal585]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I reloaded the backup save I made at the start of the conflict to have a look. Had been smashing the Mamluks when they declared on me, so was able to take enough money from that war to embrace the latest institution and help my mil tech.

*always* ally the nations that your biggest dangerous enemy wants as vital interest or strategic interest. Sell those allies out, grow in power, get 100 absolutism, and strike when PLC is in big war, calling all allies on favours, after flagging all your enemy land as vital apart from allies vital land.

Unfortunately Russia who they may have been interested in refused my call to arms. They don't seem to be interested in any of Hungary except one province and when I offer that I get -1000 because they want my Bulgarian provinces instead. They also don't want gold or treaties. So looks like I might be in for the long haul.

Beelined for Tuscany and took them out of the war which helps on the seas. Have also got a bit of money for mercs now, so guess that's the play and hope to drag the war out. Their cannons are killing me though and can't see a way out without conceding half of Bulgaria and hoping to retake it later after I catch up on ideas.

 

[mysticdueler]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I reloaded the backup save I made at the start of the conflict to have a look. Had been smashing the Mamluks when they declared on me, so was able to take enough money from that war to embrace the latest institution and help my mil tech.



Unfortunately Russia who they may have been interested in refused my call to arms. They don't seem to be interested in any of Hungary except one province and when I offer that I get -1000 because they want my Bulgarian provinces instead. They also don't want gold or treaties. So looks like I might be in for the long haul.

Beelined for Tuscany and took them out of the war which helps on the seas. Have also got a bit of money for mercs now, so guess that's the play and hope to drag the war out. Their cannons are killing me though and can't see a way out without conceding half of Bulgaria and hoping to retake it later after I catch up on ideas.

View attachment 624061
View attachment 624062

What does the military ledger screen look like, especially manpower? You could possibly try to wage a war of attrition?

 

[st360]

Detach 1-2 stacks of infantry to occupy as many of Commonwealths provinces as you can. The AI often wont have time to take them back, they give them war exaustion to peace out sooner and they give you a bit of war score. Half of the Commonwealth seems to be provinces unguarded by forts, especialy in the east and center. You could take them all with just 2 infantry divisions.

 

[Cal585]

What does the military ledger screen look like, especially manpower? You could possibly try to wage a war of attrition?

They have 111k manpower, 26k more than anyone else in the world and 80k more than me, so doesn't look like a war of attrition is possible.

Detach 1-2 stacks of infantry to occupy as many of Commonwealths provinces as you can. The AI often wont have time to take them back, they give them war exaustion to peace out sooner and they give you a bit of war score. Half of the Commonwealth seems to be provinces unguarded by forts, especialy in the east and center. You could take them all with just 2 infantry divisions.

QQ is already occupying a lot of their east for me. Doesn't seem to be doing much.

Think my best play here is to concede a couple of Bulgarian provinces and hope I can retake them later for the Basileus achievement.

But that begs the question, how can I weaken them enough going forward that I'm actually able to take provinces from them in future? Yes I was out of position fighting the Mamluks and horribly behind on tech this time but even if I do catch up and strengthen they have so far brushed aside multiple alliances of Austria, Hungary and Russia with ease.

Is there any way to covertly weaken them? Because not sure I can wait for them to be at war with another major power when they defeat everyone so easily.

 

[st360]

Is there any way to covertly weaken them?

The short answer is no. Players wouldn't like it if their nation could get weakened by a smaller nation. You can spend a lot of time and energy to weaken them by 1-2% but that wont do anything. The only 3 ways you really defeat stronger nations in EU 4 are:

Expanding faster then them, so eventually you have a bigger army.

Having better military tech, more + discipline, military ideas.

Declaring war on them with more allies so you swamp them (doesn't always work, since allied armies are uncoordinated).


Delete your forts, since they don't help you win, only loose slower. Set focus on military points and hire the most expensive military advisor you can realistically afford. Make sure he gives + discipline or morale, fire advisors until you get one that does. See if some estate interactions give you military points or combat bonuses. Fire expensive administrative and diplomacy advisors and hire cheap ones, maybe even just +1.

You really locked yourself up, but try to expand somewhere. I guess Imereti. If you don't have administrative points, use vassalization and diplomatic points. Dump Herzegovina and try to find a big ally even if they are further away. Sometimes the AI doesnt declare war just if your allies have a large enough army. Improve relations to 100 with some large nations, maybe switch rivals to their rivals. That will make them want to ally you.

All in all, you're totally surrounded by Poland and Mamluks and your targets for expansion are really low. If you cant have +1 military tech ahead of them IN ADDITION to better military bonuses you will slowly loose wars until they conquer so much of your own land that they loose interest in you. I'm pretty sure Poland wont want to conquer your Asian lands.

 

[Cal585]

You really locked yourself up, but try to expand somewhere. I guess Imereti. If you don't have administrative points, use vassalization and diplomatic points. Dump Herzegovina and try to find a big ally even if they are further away. Sometimes the AI doesnt declare war just if your allies have a large enough army. Improve relations to 100 with some large nations, maybe switch rivals to their rivals. That will make them want to ally you.

Already been doing that and think the size of my defensive web would have protected me if I hadn't been at war with Mamluks trying to expand in the first place. Herzegovina is a vassal I'm about to integrate, not an ally for any purpose beyond that. Austria, Hungary and Russia are the regional powers I was hoping might be able to stand with me against them.


Managed to finally peace out in the end for Theodoro and half my ducats after some back field pressure, the resignation of Austria and Hungary and some last minute quick blockades for war score. I see this as an absolute win all things considered, so thanks to all who have given advice on this thread!

Now to work out how to prepare for the next war. Think institutions are the key to keeping up in tech, so will invest in that and make sure I can keep up with their military at least.

 

[Howl]

Good on you.

In the immediate future focus on mil tech. Don't be behind. Seriously, just don't.
For fighting the Commonwealth your best option is: not to.
They have military ideas, which you don't. So even with the same mil tech they will have an advantage on you. It will also be difficult for you to get better generals, I assume your army tradition is low. Is there any way for you to become their friend? That would help alot.

Expansion opportunities:
a) Little stuff in Italy, if those are easy wars. That does not help much, but you will want that land anyway later.
b) going through Imereti into Asia. The whole rest of the world is waiting there for you. But it is a narrow corridor to go through.
c) Mamluks. If you can soundly beat them acquire provinces for a fake Suez canal, so you have coring range into Africa. Take provinces so you can have new neighbours (Tripoli, Tunis).
d) Can you beat up Spain? The other end of the world is yours if you can get a good foothold in Iberia.

When fighting a war (that you will win) do not only look at what you want now, also contemplate further expansion opportunities. Always.
The way to win a war against any superpower in the game is to simply be much larger with much more resources. So outgrow everyone, even if it is not the direction you want to focus on now. If there is an easy war, take it.

 

[holyvigil]

I would take Hungary if he is not in a PU with Aus. I would take Naples, Imerti, and then Qara. Maybe I would take on the Mamluks if they are doing poorly. Drop Hungary and Qara. Food not friends.

 

[petertju]

I would also suggest getting some new allies. Hungary is in your current path of expansion and is not the most reliable and strong ally, Austria looks quite weak for them, are they still Emperor? If not, also ditch them. This should enable you to ally at least one of the three powerful western Europe powers. Take one of them and maybe two of the stronger countries in the middle(Savoy, Tuscany or Netherlands)

 

[Cal585]

Have proceeded into the 18th century now, caught up on military tech and taken the Middle East and Egypt for the Empire. Unfortunately been blocked off from Europe by Hungary allying the Commonwealth and Spain seizing Italy while holding DotF. Will need to take Vidin from Commonwealth at some point for Basileus but no idea how (and would at least get me the mission claims on Italy). I guess at some point I can hit Spain and hope somebody else takes DotF? I think it'd be close just 1v1 against Commonwealth at this point let alone Hungary and Spain... Not sure what else to do but hit QQ, then Persia and push to India and keep expanding?

Current allies: Austria, Netherlands, Great Britain, Revolutionary Russia and Georgia (March)

 

[holyvigil]

Have proceeded into the 18th century now, caught up on military tech and taken the Middle East and Egypt for the Empire. Unfortunately been blocked off from Europe by Hungary allying the Commonwealth and Spain seizing Italy while holding DotF. Will need to take Vidin from Commonwealth at some point for Basileus but no idea how (and would at least get me the mission claims on Italy). I guess at some point I can hit Spain and hope somebody else takes DotF? I think it'd be close just 1v1 against Commonwealth at this point let alone Hungary and Spain... Not sure what else to do but hit QQ, then Persia and push to India and keep expanding?

View attachment 626695
Current allies: Austria, Netherlands, Great Britain, Revolutionary Russia and Georgia (March)

Also get mecca.

And I would declare on Hungary if Spain won't join and hold out until I can white peace the commonwealth.