How are Mesos/Andeans supposed to deal with 1st idea group at lvl 5?

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josh127

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Even if you survive that, the cost is enormous and the gameplay of "doing nothing at all for 80 years then trying to recover against superpowers who won't peace out when you're winning because hurrrrr length of war" is not ideal.
Assuming you survive at all. If they DOW before you've found them, you're at the mercy of how many men they put on that boat to send over. Send a major stack and it doesn't matter what you do. Send smaller stacks, and with some creative warfare you might have a chance.
 

Mr_Hobo

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Wait a minute, I didn't say I supported these changes. I don't enjoy waiting around for the Europeans to arrive any more than anyone else. My point was that Aztec should be so challenging that making a few mistakes shouldn't mean that you spend half the game behind; it should mean you lose. I'd like to see Aztec become one of the most challenging nations to play as, in a way that is also fun. Currently, you're only banking on the AI not invading before you're ready and that isn't fun no matter how quickly you catch up. If you're lucky, you can easily colonize the Americas and field massive armies. I'd rather see Aztec have more unique play, while retaining the ability to expand in capable hands.

I would keep the tech group change, but massively increase the tax and manpower values of the area. When the Europeans come they would get events to recruit local allies, and the locals would get plague events that would reduce development over time. However, this would set the stage for a massive war. If the locals won they would be set to recover from the plague and expand.

EDIT: Basically, I'd make the native game harder but less luck based. And just surviving shouldn't mean automatic New World domination. Maybe add a homeland defense bonus for the natives.
 
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Magean

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Nope. If you don't westernize fast, you will get triple dow'd or chain dow'd. A relentless rotation of England, Iberian butt buddies, and France. If you're a little unlucky, you can look at 20+ years of consecutive war against different nations, sometimes technically against several. The worst case scenario is that they start doing this before you've even met them, such that you only meet them after DoW.

Even if you survive that, the cost is enormous and the gameplay of "doing nothing at all for 80 years then trying to recover against superpowers who won't peace out when you're winning because hurrrrr length of war" is not ideal.

I've never seen a Catholic nation invading Mexico or Peru after another had seized enough provinces to create a colonial nation. Just the way the catholic AI doesn't breach the ToT and doesn't colonize where somebody else started to colonize, even their rival (unless they've nothing else to do with their colonist).
 

GrounchoVilla

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Wait a minute, I didn't say I supported these changes. I don't enjoy waiting around for the Europeans to arrive any more than anyone else. My point was that Aztec should be so challenging that making a few mistakes shouldn't mean that you spend half the game behind; it should mean you lose. I'd like to see Aztec become one of the most challenging nations to play as, in a way that is also fun. Currently, you're only banking on the AI not invading before you're ready and that isn't fun no matter how quickly you catch up. If you're lucky, you can easily colonize the Americas and field massive armies. I'd rather see Aztec have more unique play, while retaining the ability to expand in capable hands.

I would keep the tech group change, but massively increase the tax and manpower values of the area. When the Europeans come they would get events to recruit local allies, and the locals would get plague events that would reduce development over time. However, this would set the stage for a massive war. If the locals won they would be set to recover from the plague and expand.

EDIT: Basically, I'd make the native game harder but less luck based. And just surviving shouldn't mean automatic New World domination. Maybe add a homeland defense bonus for the natives.

The Aztecs should be difficult, but I think the super-challenging countries are meant to be ones like the other Mesoamerican states, and the Mayan states, which start much weaker
 
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Magean

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I know about the Caribbean trade, but I've never heard of any indication that Tenochtitlan knew about Tawantinsuyu or vice versa. Care to source that?

Same here. There was trade between Mesoamerica and the Andes as far as I know, but it went through a lot of intermediaries and people on both ends of the trade route had had to my knowledge no idea that the other civilization center existed. For example, the chronicler who recorded a lot of things (forgot his name) during Pizarro's first expedition wrote that they (the Spaniards) came across multiple rafts transporting traders and goods all along the Peruvian coast up to Columbia, in areas that the Tahuantinsuyu had never conquered and of which little was known in Peru. Now we could very well see some of this wares ending up in Mesoamerica, but that doesn't mean Mesoamericans and Andeans knew about one another. Just like the 11th century chinaware found in East Africa : that the Indonesian, Indian, Persian and Arabic traders brought these products all along doesn't imply East Africans knew China other than as "some distant land producing this fine stuff."

Now, as a side note, I heard about a Mayan city that had walls on its seashores. We can hardly fathom why they would have built such walls, unless they were threatened by pirates or some invaders from the sea. As a consequence, there must have been some kind of naval warfare in the area. Unfortunately, I've brought the book back to the library a couple of weeks ago and the name of the place is out of my brain.
 
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Haldan

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I can't imagine the Aztecs actually being on par with Europe by 1530 in real life, though.
Aztecs didn't really pass any religious reforms either, nor did they send enormous expeditions to explore Southern lands, nor did they settle the chichimec tribes, nor did they or the Mayans ever adapt guns (Mayans just barely survived until 1691, maybe they should bring in some muskets and horses next time?), nor did they invade and colonize Europe.
 

bbqftw

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Regarding game difficulty: I personally think the range of difficulties in the game is a bit strange.

Essentially, you have Europe, which is training wheels barring a few select starts (think Albania / Trebizond), where your main challenge right now is figuring out how to balance your income so you can spam ridiculous building projects like post offices in every Ragusa node province if you're not going WC pace. Practically zero MP resource management is required past ~1550, and in Common Sense you can afk spam click a button without any regards for ducat income. In my opinion, every HRE OPM (barring Anhalt, I guess) is easier than any pick in ROTW outside of Ming.

And the dev response is to double nerf ROTW with development + later idea group?

Well, okay.
 
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Assalander

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IMHO the source of most problems when it comes to Europe vs. RotW "balance" is how trivial it is to send doomstacks on the other side of the world. I don't know why PI never worked on that, doesn't seem THAT complicated and would even make playing as a European colonizer much more interesting because of the additionnal challenge:

1) Sea attrition should be a real issue,
2) transporting troops by sea should cost loads of money (they can't just feed of the land, you need to pay for the necessary supplies for the trip),
3) any province qualifying as "distant oversea" (but with a better logic for that, Caribbean shouldn't be distant oversea from South America) should have a ridiculously low supply limit, whether it's yours or not,
4) increased oversea maintenance,
5) almost inexistent or ludicrously expensive oversea reinforcement,
6) huge terrain bonuses for natives, particularly jungle and artic.

In the New World, that would fit very well with the new possibility of asking a colonial nation to start a colonial war on its own, as you indeed would have to rely more on their troops, sending reinforcements from the motherland only in the most dire of situations given the associated costs. Eventually you could have an option to manually take control of their armies, maybe by attaching one of your generals or regiments.

As a native that would obviously make your life easier (but maybe not much more interesting). Maybe so much easier that diseases would have to be buffed ;)
 
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bbqftw

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4) increased oversea maintenance,
5) almost inexistent or ludicrously expensive oversea reinforcement,
I've oft thought that the only units that should reinforce overseas at any serious rate should be locally available mercs (which should be dependent on the average tech of the local techgroup)
 

zdlugasz

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I've oft thought that the only units that should reinforce overseas at any serious rate should be locally available mercs (which should be dependent on the average tech of the local techgroup)

It wont/wouldnt be a problem because Paradox decreed that you can not recruit mercs on other continent even if you have land connection ...
 

Ungerargh

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Meh, you can complete sun god before 1600 as it is currently ( got mine in 1619 at a leisurely pace); 1500 more admin points isn't going to change that. As it was, I had to finish reforming before I could westernize; I had my neighboring core when I was at 3 reforms, colonizing across the amazon to meet Portuguese brazil., not even stealing a core.
 

WeissRaben

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(1) the conquest of the Americas was not an inevitability, and the survival of those empires was not an impossibility (imagine if Cortez was killed or sacrificed during La Noche Triste)
Not likely, but possible. If Cortez is YET another explorer that vanishes, bringing away ships and men, the Spanish Crown won't touch further attempts with a ten feet - nay, with a ten yards pole for at least a couple of decades. It isn't CERTAIN that it will be enough, but at least Mesoamerica will go back to a certain equilibrium - maybe not under the Aztecs, but equilibrium nonetheless, at which point you might see Mexico becoming a lot like Yucatan OTL, which means mostly native up to the late nineteenth century.
 
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Meh, you can complete sun god before 1600 as it is currently ( got mine in 1619 at a leisurely pace); 1500 more admin points isn't going to change that. As it was, I had to finish reforming before I could westernize; I had my neighboring core when I was at 3 reforms, colonizing across the amazon to meet Portuguese brazil., not even stealing a core.

Core steal doesn't work for Inca, so it's a good thing you didn't try it. They need to core adjacent to a vassal instead.
 
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elpibeuruguayo

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I can't imagine the Spanish sending a 40k doomstack to my American lands in 1550 either, and yet here we are.
The other thing is more ridiculous, the problem with the 40k is that in EUIV a unit is 1000 men. So the problem is understandable. A tiny army in the game would have 15000 men.
 

VolitionNewlove

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My big problem with El Dorado, is that rather than adding in gameplay that would allow them to play truly differently (from the homogenised Western European gameplay,) and allowing them to not only play out more historically, we instead got religion-based mechanics that were not only mostly ahistorical, but were also ultimately repetitive. There were a couple of good aspects, but it really did feel like we could have gotten something else instead, something much better.

It's part of the problem for how Paradox views non-Western gameplay: that of religion-based mechanics, rather than anything substantial. The North Americans did get something different (with the abilities to migrate, unique buildings, unique "technologies," and to form tribal federations,) but these mechanics didn't quite work too well with the game's design philosophy. Especially the fact that migration (arguably the most interesting-sounding) was only possible with a single province, which not only meant half of the playable nations were unable to do so, but also that with Europa Universalis' gameplay focusing on border expansion, even for those that are able to, it's rarely useful. North American gameplay remained as being largely waiting games, because of this, and I have to wonder if this affected their decisions for creating such mechanics in the time since.
 
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bbqftw

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If you look at these (somewhat out of date) numbers it's not hard to infer that ROTW players make up the minority by a fair bit:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-playerstats.757556/

The big dogs + Venice practically make up 60% of the games started.

That usually leads to a chicken and egg argument; do people not play them because they're not interesting, or are they not interesting enough for people to play them? I'd argue the latter; look at Japan for an example of a fleshed out region seeing a large number of plays despite being not-Europe.
 
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