How are Mesos/Andeans supposed to deal with 1st idea group at lvl 5?

[GrounchoVilla]

I think I just saw this change. How are Andeans and Mesoamericans supposed to deal with that? Will their tech malus be the same as it is today?

I'm glad I already completed my Sun God campaign ... it would have been much tougher.

Personally, I didn't like the fact that Mesoamerican and Andean players were forced to get the exploration group, but the fact is that their only real strategy centers around this. Will there at least be some kind of compensation? Perhaps you don't need conquistadors to discover terra incognita on your own continent, perhaps they start at tech level 2 (These were civilizations with amazing architecture and well organized militaries, albeit ones limited to stone)? I'm guessing it's a little late for 1.12 but it would be great in a hot fix. Also perhaps allow Mesoamericans to build light ships/transports at ADM 3 and colonize across straights? Perhaps you could use your default colonist to go meet them in Cuba.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

Its a shame too, I wanted to start Common Sense with a Maya campaign ... I might just stick to my idea of a Burma runthrough.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If they moved tech malus to ~100% they could hit ADM 5 in a similar timeframe as right now, only slightly later. We'll see if "balance" is only applied when convenient/relevant to Europe .

 

[dharper]

Can't you take the religious reform which gives you +1 colonist and then use that to explore? I seem to remember a rule that you automatically discover any province adjacent to one of your colonies.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Can't you take the religious reform which gives you +1 colonist and then use that to explore? I seem to remember a rule that you automatically discover any province adjacent to one of your colonies.

No, this option isn't even close to realistic. Look into the Aztec strategy threads where I and others go into more detail. You're comparing finishing westernization in 1530ish to starting it in 1580 or later.

 

[dharper]

No, this option isn't even close to realistic. Look into the Aztec strategy threads where I and others go into more detail. You're comparing finishing westernization in 1530ish to starting it in 1580 or later.

I can't imagine the Aztecs actually being on par with Europe by 1530 in real life, though.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

Can't you take the religious reform which gives you +1 colonist and then use that to explore? I seem to remember a rule that you automatically discover any province adjacent to one of your colonies.

It's just not sufficient - you need to know where the Europeans landed, you really need access to more than one colonist, and it is ideal to go and terrorize the various animist tribal govts nearby. Perhaps with more native civs scattered around to allow the player to "leapfrog"? Even then, I think you're replacing a decent (if ahistorical) strategy with waiting for Cortez.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

I can't imagine the Aztecs actually being on par with Europe by 1530 in real life, though.

Westernization still requires a lot of catch-up, and the non-westernized forms of these powers are far weaker than they historically were. Spain only conquered the Aztecs through native allies, and they didn't "conquer" the Inca so much as kill their head of state and capture (one might say "vassalize") his successors. They couldn't fully conquer the Mayans until 1697 (and even then, some Mayan groups survived in remote patches of jungle). Westernization is the best way to not get slapped around by a bunch of Castilian and French soldiers with both a technological advantage and a bunch of nasty, fully developed idea groups

 

[neondt]

How much did Mesoamericans know about the world beyond their borders? Maybe there's an argument to be made about having more territory explored from 1444.

 

[earlofbrigand]

I think that the negative effects of change will come out in the wash a few weeks after the patch/DLC comes out.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can't imagine the Aztecs actually being on par with Europe by 1530 in real life, though.

Please stick to the topic of discussion. I'm tired of undressing this argument over and over and over again. The game is flagrantly unrealistic through and through, and any assertion that finishing westernization = "on par" is an advertisement of not understanding the game mechanic in question.

How much did Mesoamericans know about the world beyond their borders? Maybe there's an argument to be made about having more territory explored from 1444.

They had contact with Inca and traded into the Caribbean, so yes there is an argument to be made.

Considering that sub-Saharan nations still can't see areas they traveled and traded with for hundreds of years and have a pathetically small sight picture, I wouldn't hold my breath on a more reasonable new world vision...though it would help this problem to a degree.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

If Meso and the Incas have wider vision from the start, they can at least go vassalizing some of the random tribes near where Europeans might land once they're done reforming.

 

[earlofbrigand]

There is a VERY EASY answer to this problem.

In the Options section at the start of a game, you can tick whether you want to remove tech penalties for different groups. That way, you can choose realism or fantasy.

It's only a game - so if you want to have the same rules for the Aztec as you do for France, why not? It might make for some interesting developments if a massive fleet comes over to attack Europe once in a while.

On the other hand, if you want the game to resemble historical realities, then it only makes sense for things to be as they are. The Spanish were able to conquer half of the Americas with a tiny force of men (combined with smallpox et al).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There is a VERY EASY answer to this problem.

In the Options section at the start of a game, you can tick whether you want to remove tech penalties for different groups. That way, you can choose realism or fantasy.

It's only a game - so if you want to have the same rules for the Aztec as you do for France, why not? It might make for some interesting developments if a massive fleet comes over to attack Europe once in a while.

On the other hand, if you want the game to resemble historical realities, then it only makes sense for things to be as they are. The Spanish were able to conquer half of the Americas with a tiny force of men (combined with smallpox et al).

Misrepresenting history does not a credible point make. It's also non-sequitur to the topic of discussion here.

 

[earlofbrigand]

Misrepresenting history does not a credible point make. It's also non-sequitur to the topic of discussion here.

It's not misrepresenting anything. A relatively tiny Spanish force conquered some very big empires.

Besides, giving the player an ON-OFF choice re tech-group solves all of the above problems. If you want Wanka to start without a tech penalty - no problem. If you want the Huron to fall in a few years under the yoke of a French musket, then again, it's your choice.

The only caveat being Ironman related issues (probably disabled if you opt to give everyone the same tech development level)

 

[neondt]

It's not misrepresenting anything. A relatively tiny Spanish force conquered some very big empires.

Besides, giving the player an ON-OFF choice re tech-group solves all of the above problems. If you want Wanka to start without a tech penalty - no problem. If you want the Huron to fall in a few years under the yoke of a French musket, then again, it's your choice.

The only caveat being Ironman related issues (probably disabled if you opt to give everyone the same tech development level)

If you don't care about ironman, there's several mods that equalise tech groups over on Steam Workshop. Don't really see the point of adding this to vanilla.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

There is a VERY EASY answer to this problem.

In the Options section at the start of a game, you can tick whether you want to remove tech penalties for different groups. That way, you can choose realism or fantasy.

It's only a game - so if you want to have the same rules for the Aztec as you do for France, why not? It might make for some interesting developments if a massive fleet comes over to attack Europe once in a while.

What if someone wants to play an ironman campaign? What if they want to be able to survive and overcome the challenge of the tech malus?

On the other hand, if you want the game to resemble historical realities, then it only makes sense for things to be as they are. The Spanish were able to conquer half of the Americas with a tiny force of men (combined with smallpox et al).

That's a pretty superficial reading of the conquest of the New World. Cortez had a small army, but his native allies matched the Aztecs in numbers, and Pizarro just kidnapped the Incan king and was not able to destroy the power of their regime (hence Manco Inca later nearly driving the Spanish out, defeating their army in a battle, and consolidating an independent Inca state outside Cuzco which lasted for decades - a part of the story nobody ever reads about). And again, the Spanish lost several attempts to conquer the Yucatan, and were only able to do so after the Xiu and their enemies bloodied themselves. Even after that, the Spanish lost several expeditions into the Peten Jungle.

Basically, the Spanish weren't divinely ordained to conquer the New World, they just got lucky through some very bold but risky decisions made by brilliant but brutally thuggish agents - Cortez and Pizarro. Both the AI and the player should have the opportunity to "play better" than the historical Mayan, Aztec and Andean leaders and survive, depending on the course of the game. Much as, in some games, Tunis dominates most of the Mediterranean, which is an example of a common ahistorical outcome.

 

[yerm]

The problem is not colonizing speed, its the need to even do it. The Aztecs can finish their conquest of the entire central America, and then they're stuck twiddling thumbs waiting for Europeans? Why can't they go sailing down and fight the Incas, Rome vs Carthage style? Why can't they conquer the mound builders and Mississippi civilizations, or start establishing their trade empire across the Caribbean first?

For all the raging, at least Hordes can reform to semi-usefulness without an actual European. Make it harder, absolutely, but perhaps the religious reform process (and other reforms for non-special pagans) could lead to some semblance of not-awful technology. I personally feel pretty strongly that at least the Incas could have been on track to being useful had things played out differently.

It's not misrepresenting anything. A relatively tiny Spanish force conquered some very big empires.

Which empires? The Aztecs were fractured and the cities played against each other. The Mayans took forever. The Inca were hit at their worst possible timing and were more of a vassal than direct conquest. The same argument can be said of many conquests throughout history too; small forces did amazing things because real life isn't a raw numerical game.

In the mean time, Spanish diseases conquered some very big empires. Spanish armies had to use diplomacy.

 

[earlofbrigand]

If you don't care about ironman, there's several mods that equalise tech groups over on Steam Workshop. Don't really see the point of adding this to vanilla.

Well yes. There is that. Which makes this entire thread a bit useless anyway, since the 'fix' is not very difficult to mod. In fact, it's almost a DIY job.

On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that the Steam Workshop does not work on Macs.
(so if you are a Modder, I would be most grateful if you can make your work available for direct download)

 

[EMT0]

Subterfuge, not diplomacy. The Incan conquest is hard to explain as anything other than one massive fluke where everything that could go wrong for the Inca did go wrong.