How are division's armor and piercing calculated?

[Myrten]

Thanks to @Wouter Weges and his thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...oi-4-ask-any-questions-about-the-game.940427/ we have screenshots of division designer but so far we haven't been able to get how division armor and armor piercing are calculated for a division:

For example :
1936 motorized division has 0 armor and 4 piercing
1934 heavy tank has 70 armor and 35 piercing

But if we combine them into (1 mot,1 h tank) division we get following values:
45.5 armor 25.7 piercing while the average values would be 35 and 19.5

If we add one more motorized division it gets even stranger:
37.3 armor and 22.5 piercing

Another examples we have:
4 mot and 1 heavy = 30.5 armor and 20.1 piercing
4 mot and 2 heavy = 37.3 armor and 22.5 piercing

It looks a bit like each unit with given value of armor gives diminishing returns.

 

[Sur]

I haven't been able to find anywhere where they say the combat stat calculations ;-;

 

[podcat]

its a weighted average. (40% for piercing, 30% for armor)

 

[Lifthrasil]

its a weighted average. (40% for piercing, 30% for armor)
View attachment 186001

Interesting. But why is weighted like that and not strictly averaged?

 

[Eusterw]

Maybee, if you have anti-tank guns, than they would (in real life) be used against amor as much as possible.

So a battalion with anti-tank-guns would be dangerous in all cases. If impemented in al large or in a small divison.

Maybee...

 

[Myrten]

its a weighted average. (40% for piercing, 30% for armor)
View attachment 186001

Thanks a lot! Why did you include support battalions in armor\piercing calculations? It doesn't make much sense for me since they don't even use combat width.



In case anyone don't get it exact final formula is as follows:

Armor: 30% * (Highest armor) + 70% * (Average armor for all battalions)
Piercing: 40% * (Highest piercing) + 60% * (Average piercing for all battalions)

 

[Denkt]

Piercing: 40% * (Highest piercing) + 70% * (Average piercing for all battalions)

It is 60% not 70%.

 

[Myrten]

It is 60% not 70%.

Ooops - I've forgot to change it after copy&paste. Corrected now.

 

[Sun_Killer]

Thanks a lot! Why did you include support battalions in armor\piercing calculations? It doesn't make much sense for me since they don't even use combat width.



In case anyone don't get it exact final formula is as follows:

Armor: 30% * (Highest armor) + 70% * (Average armor for all battalions)
Piercing: 40% * (Highest piercing) + 60% * (Average piercing for all battalions)

i think the reason why support is calculated is, that it also has disadvantages to include them. So that it doesen´t become a nobrainer to add them.

 

[podcat]

Interesting. But why is weighted like that and not strictly averaged?

it promotes a combined arms effect. Otherwise adding a few AT guns would basically do nothing or players would want to only do only-armor divisions etc.
The idea is that armor/piercing are the quality of your best stuff having an effect (so there is a poitn to mixing in some tigers with mediums and still feel their armor bump) while hard attack and softness is your averageness

i think the reason why support is calculated is, that it also has disadvantages to include them. So that it doesen´t become a nobrainer to add them.

yeah basically

 

[scroggin]

I guess that what needs to be avoided is; you have a heavy tank that cant be penetrated by a certain gun but if you put some motorised units in the same division suddenly you start loosing these heavy tanks.

This formula seems like a compromise that goes some way towards avoiding this problem but also give some account to the average armour level within the division. The only other way would be to have losses calculated individually by equipment type rather than by division. How powerful is your computer?

 

[Adonnus]

its a weighted average. (40% for piercing, 30% for armor)

Little typo there in the description, "to the target's armour value" not "to the targets armour value." You guys really need dedicated spelling and grammar checkers...

 

[Ctanr]

it promotes a combined arms effect. Otherwise adding a few AT guns would basically do nothing or players would want to only do only-armor divisions etc.
The idea is that armor/piercing are the quality of your best stuff having an effect (so there is a poitn to mixing in some tigers with mediums and still feel their armor bump) while hard attack and softness is your averageness


yeah basically

i think the bonus (or better not having a malus) of being able to pierce the enemies armor shouldnt be a just on or off, it should scale, because it makes a big difference if you are able to pierce the enemies armor from a distance of 100 meter or 2 kilometer

also there should be a difference between if your piercing is only slightly lower than the enemies armor and if it is much lower

 

[Innocentius69]

Ah this is great! Thanks Podcat for clarifying this. I didn't find the tooltip you posted myself should have looked for that!

 

[Lifthrasil]

Little typo there in the description, "to the target's armour value" not "to the targets armour value." You guys really need dedicated spelling and grammar checkers...

Maybe they mean "multiple targets"? Or would I have to write "to the targets' armor value" then?

 

[Adonnus]

Maybe they mean "multiple targets"? Or would I have to write "to the targets' armor value" then?

You would, though it'd sound out loud as "targets's". Wow I never thought being a grammar nazi would have a real world use, turns out the paradox forum is occasionally in need.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

its a weighted average. (40% for piercing, 30% for armor)
View attachment 186001

Could someone help me figure out why average base is and why is it 8.5?

I though the average of these divisons is 15 ((30+20+5+5)/4)

 

[Myrten]

Could someone help me figure out what average base is and why is 8.5?

I though the average of these divisons is 15 ((30+20+5+5)/4)

It's simple average - take a better look at this screenshot - there are 4 mot battalions which displays 20, but for calculations it's 4x5 so 8.5 comes from
(30+5+5+5+5+5+5)/7

 

[Ctanr]

Could someone help me figure out what average base is and why is 8.5?

I though the average of these divisons is 15 ((30+20+5+5)/4)

the weighted average doesnt weighs all penetration values the same but it weighs the highest one more.
For example if we have a unit with four brigades wich have 4 penetration values: P1,P2,P3 and P4 and one of them is also the highest Ph: than the total penetration value is:
Ph*0,4+[(P1+P2+P3+P4)/4]*0,6 which is 0,4 times the highest penetration value plus 0,6 times the average penetration

you see one of the penetration value (the highest one) is more important than the other ones

 

[Lifthrasil]

You would, though it'd sound out loud as "targets's". Wow I never thought being a grammar nazi would have a real world use, turns out the paradox forum is occasionally in need.

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