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xyra

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in my 1.4 ottoman game AE was not there.

By 1550 i was able to field troops as the #2, #3 and #4 combined could.
by 1650 i was able to field troops as the top10 combined could.
by 1750 i was able to field 50% of all troops.

OE couldn't stop me, even if i had over 200OE.
I expanded so fast, that even with the +33% Religous unitiy and 4 missionaries i droped below 100% RU. and couldn't convert all my convertable provinces by the end.

The game was actually over by 1550 as there was no force that could in any way stop my by that date..


Coalitions may not be the funniest part of the game. but without coalitions the game would be like fruit ninja: just some casually game, almost no strategy neccessary.
 

Lindorn

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There is nothing balanced or realistic about the current coalition dynamics.

Let's start with history. The first major peace of the EU era, The Peace of Thorn, involved Poland taking four provinces from the Tuetonic Order. If you load up the history database during the war, Poland has no claims nor any AE reductions. Doing this historical peace gives you a wildly ahistorical outcome - Poland ending up facing a coalition against everyone to whom it is not allied; in reality the Teutonic Order withdrew from Polish politics and nobody else gave a damn about Polish expansion. Well what else? Well in 1453-1463 the Ottoman Empire annexed (with no claims, except maybe one): Constantinople, Morea, Athens, most of Bosnia, and most of Serbia. You can also arguably through in vassalizations of Wallachia and Moldavia. The coalition from that tends to involve just about every Christian remotely nearby. Who went into coalition against the Ottoman Empire - at worst Hungary and maybe a few merchant states. Well what about the Italian Wars? Well the League of Venice formed before France took any territory and after all did so as a result of France accepting a throne claim against an excommunicated monarch. Following the initial war, France took out all of Milan (something like 100 AE) and nobody did anything for a quarter of a century. Spain, of course deposed the Neapolitan King and directly conquered the place, and no coalitions formed. The Muscovite Lithuanian wars? Enough AE to put every Catholic on the Russian borders into an alliance somehow resulted in precisely nothing like a coalition against Muscovy. And I can go on, and on, and on. War of Spanish Succession, the Napoleonic Wars, the Mughal Conquests, etc. All of this is utterly ahistorical, pretty much every historical peace was either status quo ante bellum ... or involved more land changing hands than you can do without tripping long lasting coalitions in EUIV.

But what about balance? Don't make me laugh. Is it balanced that Trier taking two provinces is deemed as more of a threat to the HRE than the OE Bosnia, Iraq, and Kaffa? Or that if I get detected fabricating a claim (something done routinely throughout the era, by everyone) it has a bigger malus than actually territory in some situations. Or that landlocked countries are utterly and totally screwed compared to people who can hit Muslims, Christians, and maybe even Eastern Religions and Pagans. Or consider the risk/reward. You beat a coalition consisting of France, Sweden, Spain, England, and Austria, your "balanced" reward is less than you can manage just against Russia alone. Or somehow it is "balanced" that the magical AE timer trumps every single other strategic consideration ... please - Sweden is going through a peasant's war with some pretender rebels running around with Russian troops invading Finland. Should I invade and take their Baltic coast or not? Nope, I'm too close to the AE threshold. It is less expensive and a far better choice to wait 10 years, let Sweden rebuild its army and then invade for two province than to hit them when they are weak. The balance between AE and every other strategic concern in the game tips to AE in 95% of cases or more.


And that accomplishes what? Money is pretty much worthless once you become a major power and start efficiently using mercs. Trade power is a joke, it gives you money - if you are actually in a position to capitalize it might be worth something, but it is dead in 5 years. But don't I actually hurt my enemies? Well you can burn their manpower pool and force up their WE ... but I have found that I lose more troops to rebels than I kill of the enemy. Worse if you do start nuking the AI bad with low manpower and and high WE, then you can break them back to 0 stab and gift them a bunch of troops thanks to a bunch of big rebel spawns.

In short about the only thing worth anything for such an AE-less war is sinking ships ... but that is also what you can do when you declare war anyways. And of course, these being your rivals, you pretty much can't keep them out of the coalitions: -50 rival, -25 competing superpower, -15 declared war, pretty much alone will drive any rival with any AE into coalition. Add in the normal crap - Border friction, has claim, has CB, wrong religion, allied to rival, wants my provinces, conquered province same religion, and of course the AE relations hit itself. Going to war with your rivals for trivial amounts of gold (either directly or via trade power) is so totally not worth it. If your rivals, by some small miracle, aren't already in a coalition, they will be heading there shortly thanks to your war nuking relations further. If they are already in a coalition, good luck with that "trade power" and cash thing, you can either wait for the war score timer to tick up to 25% and then farm battles or actually go siege places (like 20) and wait for the coalition to realize that it has been beaten.

I mean, if the game gave me anything useful for 0 AE, it would be one thing, but for any real war your cost/benefit ratio is utter crap for anything but returning cores or releasing nations. This, of course, requires vassals with old cores on the land in question, but of course many places lack such cores and over half of those expire in the first half of the game.


I'm very interested in hearing why people enjoy coalitions - particularly as there are millions of balanced and historical ways to improve the mechanism. But so far most of this is from stuff that doesn't hinge on coalitions (they actually don't declare on you if you are sufficiently stronger, and strong alliances behave quite similarly) or stuff that is just downright wrong.

Finally someone with sense speaking to this issue. I'm so frustrated right now that I seem to happen to have a play style and set of interests that Paradox has no intention of letting me enjoy. It's incredibly disheartening as someone who's given them a lot of money and would like to play the game as I see fit. I don't see them going after anything in the game as hard as they are expansion and expansion mechanics right now.
 

Fexcad

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in my 1.4 ottoman game AE was not there.

By 1550 i was able to field troops as the #2, #3 and #4 combined could.
by 1650 i was able to field troops as the top10 combined could.
by 1750 i was able to field 50% of all troops.

OE couldn't stop me, even if i had over 200OE.
I expanded so fast, that even with the +33% Religous unitiy and 4 missionaries i droped below 100% RU. and couldn't convert all my convertable provinces by the end.

The game was actually over by 1550 as there was no force that could in any way stop my by that date..


Coalitions may not be the funniest part of the game. but without coalitions the game would be like fruit ninja: just some casually game, almost no strategy neccessary.

Your evidence doesn't really back up your conclusion.

You're talking like coalitions somehow make the game harder and add strategic depth. They don't. It's still really easy to blob as the OE in 1.5, both in avoiding coalitions and annihilating the ones that do form. If anything, they remove strategy. Either do gamey things to avoid them (temporary alliances, cycle through theaters), or let them form and... avoid them. At least until AE burns off because beating them is easy but not worth the time for 2 provinces.

Not that I'm advocating removing them, this was just bugging me.


Also, this was too:
I find coalitions fun.

They act as an obstacle to overcome, and force you to think strategically and take advantage of opportunities.

In addition, they can make an impossible situation possible, by joining in coalitions against a much stronger rival. I had a game as Byzantium in which I was able to defeat the Ottomans by joining a coalition against them, and it was terrific fun. :)

1) You can't take advantage of opportunities. Unified truce timers prevent that, as does the more efficient dont-let-coalitions-form means you can't react to weaknesses in neighbors if AE hasn't ticked down far enough.

2) Also, I'm curious. Your coalition against the Ottomans helped you win a war but... what did you actually gain from that war? I'm guessing if you were war leader or just lucky with nice allies, you got maybe 2 or 3 provinces?
 
Last edited:

Taciturn Scot

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Of course EU4's coalitions are not historical and they are not an attempt to model anything historical. They are an evolution of what we had before in EU3. EU4 is an improvement on what we had in EU3, being an improvement on what we had with EU2, being an improvement on what we had in EU1, which was a computer adaption of a rather complex boardgame. It's not a history simulator, much as we'd like it to be. Its scale is nothing less than the entire discovered planet with hundreds of playable factions interacting with each other through 400 years of history so expecting it to produce historically plausible outcomes is a sure way to end up disappointed. Each new iteration of the game sees improvements to some of the features of the existing engine, sometimes very radical changes to existing systems like EU4's new Trade system for example. Coalitions are one such evolution in the game mechanics. They're certainly not perfect and I think everybody wants to see some changes/improvements made. It's just that some of us can play the game and have fun with the system that is in place at the moment while other can't.

The fun we get from playing the game is in our own head. The game itself is just a random number generator/database and it is our imagination that makes clicking on some part of the map or interface feel fun and exciting. What I find 'fun' in this game is very likely going to be substantially different from somebody else's. There's no reason to get angry with people because they enjoy something that you don't or that they don't particularly feel like defending why they like it. Unless you're conducting some sort of psychological paper on computer game-player preferences, there's no good reason for anyone to question why people enjoy the game in its present form. So chill out.
 
Last edited:

Neoptolemos

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in my 1.4 ottoman game AE was not there.

By 1550 i was able to field troops as the #2, #3 and #4 combined could.
by 1650 i was able to field troops as the top10 combined could.
by 1750 i was able to field 50% of all troops.

OE couldn't stop me, even if i had over 200OE.
I expanded so fast, that even with the +33% Religous unitiy and 4 missionaries i droped below 100% RU. and couldn't convert all my convertable provinces by the end.

The game was actually over by 1550 as there was no force that could in any way stop my by that date..


Coalitions may not be the funniest part of the game. but without coalitions the game would be like fruit ninja: just some casually game, almost no strategy neccessary.

Designing a singleplayer game to be properly challenging for the highest percentile of players is a losing proposition. At a certain level of play, coalitions become as easy to circumvent as attrition or truces, but since the means to circumvent them are gamey, as they usually go beyond developer expectations of play, they encourage "unrealistic" or "ahistorical" play among the players most likely to notice it, if not complain. The key is not to design a system that is impossible to exploit, which is what Paradox seems bound on doing. There is no perfect combination of AE and OE weighting that suddenly makes limited expansion challenging but rewarding. The key is to design a system that is only able to be exploited through "realistic" or "historical" play, or failing that, that is most interesting and fun to interact with through "realistic" or "historical" play.
 

kuolema

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Of course EU4's coalitions are not historical and they are not an attempt to model anything historical. They are an evolution of what we had before in EU3. EU4 is an improvement on what we had in EU3, being an improvement on what we had with EU2, being an improvement on what we had in EU1, which was a computer adaption of a rather complex boardgame. It's not a history simulator, much as we'd like it to be. Its scale is nothing less than the entire discovered planet with hundreds of playable factions interacting with each other through 400 years of history so expecting it to produce historically plausible outcomes is a sure way to end up disappointed. Each new iteration of the game sees improvements to some of the features of the existing engine, sometimes very radical changes to existing systems like EU4's new Trade system for example. Coalitions are one such evolution in the game mechanics. They're certainly not perfect and I think everybody wants to see some changes/improvements made. It's just that some of us can play the game and have fun with the system that is in place at the moment while other can't.

The fun we get from playing the game is in our own head. The game itself is just a random number generator/database and it is our imagination that makes clicking on some part of the map or interface feel fun and exciting. What I find 'fun' in this game is very likely going to be substantially different from somebody else's. There's no reason to get angry with people because they enjoy something that you don't or that they don't particularly feel like defending why they like it. Unless you're conducting some sort of psychological paper on computer game-player preferences, there's no good reason for anyone to question why people enjoy the game in its present form. So chill out.

I thought this thread was in response to people arguing against those who don't like coalitions and AE sometimes rather obnoxiously, despite the fact that their own personal playstyle and house rules make coalitions irrelevant in their own games, and then dodging questions about what exactly makes coalition wars fun. Not a random attack on anyone who has different preferences. This is the only reason I have been posting. I for one am not really upset about AE or coalitions. I don't really enjoy the game how I supposed it was intended to be played, but have found my own way of having fun with it, and I am content.
 

xyra

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Your evidence doesn't really back up your conclusion.

You're talking like coalitions somehow make the game harder and add strategic depth. They don't. It's still really easy to blob as the OE in 1.5, both in avoiding coalitions and annihilating the ones that do form. If anything, they remove strategy. Either do gamey things to avoid them (temporary alliances, cycle through theaters), or let them form and... avoid them. At least until AE burns off because beating them is easy but not worth the time for 2 provinces.

Not that I'm advocating removing them, this was just bugging me.
....

Let me rephrase my statement without an example:

Coalitions are not fun themself. They help to add some fun to the game overall by stretching the time one needs to blob to the point of world domination and makes planing more relevant.
Currently, they are the only thing that stop me in the game from almost constant warfare and expands the timeframe i see in EU4 while still have a challenge. This is what adds fun to the game: I get an additional challenge. I have to pick my targets not only because i can beat them easily. I have to make more considerations in peacedeals. And this is something that actually makes a strategygame a strategy game/makes a strategy game more fun because it gets more depth.

Additionally the rate on how often/fast Coalitions appear can be modified by the seetings easy, normal, hard. If someone doesn't like coalitions, play on easy and you will rarely see large coalitions.
 

kemazon

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Coalitions and AE are not perfectly balanced right now but they are necessary to prevent the player from steam rolling and winning the game in 100 years.

It makes you ponder and even though it might be more annoying than a challenge at times, Paradox will eventually get it perfectly balanced because as it is right now it is more fun this way than having nothing to stop you from having absolute zero challenge.
 

Korsan82

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Paradox uses them as a block against rapid expansion because winning easily is not much fun either. In my opinion they still need adjustment. I'm not sure if you played eu3, but the previous system used infamy or bad boy which was a single score that affected oppinion across the board and gave enemies a free cb above a certain threshold. Ae and coalitions are a more dynamic version of that.

A better block would be a better thought mechanism. Like splitting every province into different parts (like in V2). This way expansion takes more time, as the province count is just higher. In my eyes by far better than a mechanism which simply leads into frustration. People should also stop to justify bad gameplay/balance solutions when there are much better workarounds, even in mods (by non-professional people) available!
 

xyra

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A better block would be a better thought mechanism. Like splitting every province into different parts (like in V2). This way expansion takes more time, as the province count is just higher. In my eyes by far better than a mechanism which simply leads into frustration. People should also stop to justify bad gameplay/balance solutions when there are much better workarounds, even in mods (by non-professional people) available!
That doesn't add more deep like coalition does, this just slows down progress. Maybe i i'll write some words about how to handle coalitions beside waiting for AE to drop. Because there are few ways, including some cheese.
 

TheBloke

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AE and coalitions are fun in the way that death is fun in an RPG or FPS, and that crashing is fun in a racing game.

They're not fun. It's the work required to mitigate and avoid them that is fun.

That said, there are clearly significant - and extensively discussed - design problems in the current coalition system. It could do a far better job of being an anti-blobbing mechanic, adding to the strategy and risk/reward of the game in ways other than simply avoiding it completely.
 

Taciturn Scot

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I thought this thread was in response to people arguing against those who don't like coalitions and AE sometimes rather obnoxiously, despite the fact that their own personal playstyle and house rules make coalitions irrelevant in their own games, and then dodging questions about what exactly makes coalition wars fun. Not a random attack on anyone who has different preferences. This is the only reason I have been posting. I for one am not really upset about AE or coalitions. I don't really enjoy the game how I supposed it was intended to be played, but have found my own way of having fun with it, and I am content.

You are correct that this thread was in response to people arguing against, etc, but the OP does start out with a direct question:

How are Coalitions and AE fun?

I'm not dodging the question of what makes coalition wars fun. I can't speak for anyone but myself so what follows is my experience only. I played EU2 and EU3 before I came to EU4. I happened to spend quite a lot of game time being thought of as 'dishonourable scum' by the game engine and therefore fought some quite huge and lengthy Badboy wars, particularly in EU2. Because I enjoyed BB the Coalitions in EU4 are already a familiar mechanic in the game. I enjoy EU4 with coalitions for the same reasons I enjoyed EU2 and 3 with Badboy. It's not because I think that Coalitions/AE do a good job of representing anything historical. They don't. For me, they a part of the EU experience.

Edit to add:
Although I stated this earlier in this thread, and in at least one other post I made recently, I happen to think that there is plenty of room for improvement in the Coalition system. Just because I had fun with BB in EU2 and 3 doesn't mean that I think we should stick with Coalitions as they are implemented just now for nostalgia's sake ;) I really like some of Jomini's ideas for example. But it's up to the Paradox Developers to decide how compatible his proposals for improvement are with their vision.
 
Last edited:

Korsan82

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Here is my 30 minutes work regarding coalitions (mostly MS paint editing):

Exceeding the AE limit allows a nation to form a coalition against the target that exceeds the limit.

Coalition leader:
- Any country bordering the aggressive country
- Any country bordering the aggressive country’s last war target (which led to AE exceed)
- The war target of the aggressor in its last war

Countries that can join a coalition:
- Any country bordering the COALITION LEADER
OR
- Any country with +100 relations to the coalition leader

- A country with the same religion as the coalition leader neighboring the coalition target

The coalition leader can call all affected countries with the above conditions met to a coalition action against an aggressor. The invited countries will get an event:

RHHaN9M.jpg

Join the coalition:
- Gives an instant bonus in relations towards Poland. All countries that join the coalition also get a bonus to all coalition members over time.
- Prestige bonus

Ignore their call:
- Loss of prestige
- Relation malus towards Poland and all members that will join the coalition

Outcome: Coalitions no more reach the scale of world wars which is seriously ahistorical but are limited to mostly regional unions against an aggression. At the same time the amount of regional coalitions will increase as a country can now actively ask for a coalition (dunno if this is possible since 1.3 - there is stopped actively playing). The aggressive country will now face regional blocks in the direction they want to expand into. And this is by far better than the "join the party and beat the donkey" mentality where being a coalition target is not fun.
The formed local coalitions are a hard but managable task and I think more fun that what we have now.

This however requires the possibility of multiple coalitions against one target which could also have their own names (like historically). Say Germany wants to expand into Scandinavia, there it could face the Scandinavian coalition, while at the southern direction there might be the Mediterranean coalition. Names should be also editable by the coalition leader (only if it's a human player ofc).
Germany will no longer face both coalitions as it is now but will only face regional coalitions.

I might be totally wrong though as oddly some people seem to like the current coalition system.
 
Last edited:

Pugman

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Maybe they should just create another game option like they do for historical nations, etc., where people can turn this on or off. Some people like it and some don't. I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind with these endless arguments. I would just mod it out if it were me but I know not everyone likes to/is able to do that.
 

FrosT37

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And that accomplishes what? Money is pretty much worthless once you become a major power and start efficiently using mercs. Trade power is a joke, it gives you money - if you are actually in a position to capitalize it might be worth something, but it is dead in 5 years. But don't I actually hurt my enemies? Well you can burn their manpower pool and force up their WE ... but I have found that I lose more troops to rebels than I kill of the enemy. Worse if you do start nuking the AI bad with low manpower and and high WE, then you can break them back to 0 stab and gift them a bunch of troops thanks to a bunch of big rebel spawns.

In short about the only thing worth anything for such an AE-less war is sinking ships ... but that is also what you can do when you declare war anyways. And of course, these being your rivals, you pretty much can't keep them out of the coalitions: -50 rival, -25 competing superpower, -15 declared war, pretty much alone will drive any rival with any AE into coalition. Add in the normal crap - Border friction, has claim, has CB, wrong religion, allied to rival, wants my provinces, conquered province same religion, and of course the AE relations hit itself. Going to war with your rivals for trivial amounts of gold (either directly or via trade power) is so totally not worth it. If your rivals, by some small miracle, aren't already in a coalition, they will be heading there shortly thanks to your war nuking relations further. If they are already in a coalition, good luck with that "trade power" and cash thing, you can either wait for the war score timer to tick up to 25% and then farm battles or actually go siege places (like 20) and wait for the coalition to realize that it has been beaten.
If you don't find money useful, then I assume you already have three +3 advisors.

Anyway, money is not the only thing you can get for 0 AE. You can also revoke cores, return cores, release nations, cancel vassals and cancel treaties. Breaking down big countries like France or Russia in multiple small countries is quite satisfying IMHO.

People who just want to paint the world map should probably play Hearts of Iron instead.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Maybe they should just create another game option like they do for historical nations, etc., where people can turn this on or off. Some people like it and some don't. I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind with these endless arguments. I would just mod it out if it were me but I know not everyone likes to/is able to do that.

There are very few people that dislike the coalition mechanics that don't think coalitions should exist at all. What needs work right now is their formation logic & risk/reward proposition. They are mostly devoid of strategy at the moment, and that doesn't have to be true.
 

Alblaka

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I just dropped another game when apparently anything in 3province radius decided to coalition me... for reconquering 3 of my cores as sweden. Seriously Polen, get the hell off, you don't even have ships!
 

unmerged(804580)

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AE and coalitions are fun in the way that death is fun in an RPG or FPS, and that crashing is fun in a racing game.

They're not fun. It's the work required to mitigate and avoid them that is fun.

That said, there are clearly significant - and extensively discussed - design problems in the current coalition system. It could do a far better job of being an anti-blobbing mechanic, adding to the strategy and risk/reward of the game in ways other than simply avoiding it completely.

Nice point. It's the mental puzzle of working around and avoiding while blobbing that makes the game fun, at least to me.

EU4 is a rather gentle game. It doesn't really crush you because you made one big mistake. It's the failure to correct the mistake, and continuing to play against the game (rather than playing the game) that brings the frustration. This is just my personal perspective and the way I approach the game, but that actually makes a fun experience.

You'd be looking for dormant cores and low-AE means to expand constantly, and take risks when it's worth taking: do you vassalize the Hansa in their 1444 border, just because they joined the wrong side of the war and take the AE? ...or do you let the Hansa grow, take extremely rich coastal cities and try to dismantle it province by province with infuriatingly high war scores and AE later?

I was actually disappointed with the current patch when the AE and coalition supposedly returned. Some even went on to claim it's near impossible to expand in the HRE, but I just don't find that to be the case. And I'm not even close to being a top-notch player: I suck at tactical decisions, I lose tons of manpower out of sheer attrition every war, and if I fight an AI enemy with about the same military, I will most likely lose. I genuinely feel curious how the others play the game, so that coalition becomes a consistant problem that puts the game to a grinding halt.

I'm OK if the coalitions stay. Sure, you can argue that the mechanics could be more fluid, more interesting to work against rather than around. And those points are probably valid in many ways. But, if the coalitions and the AE are working as designed and intended, then I think they should stay. This is a fundamental part of the game whose change will force players to adopt a completely different playstyle, yet again. IMHO it's better to stick to one less-than-ideal-but-working design than to go bipolar.
 

Homer2101

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The coalition mechanic exists to slow down player rate of expansion, and to provide more challenge for successful players. Without coalitions, and even with them for easy-mode nations like the Ottomans, it's currently possible to faceroll your way to world domination with most nations by 1700. Coalitions provide a threat to players (and sometimes to the AI) who expand too aggressively, and forces them to consider the impact of their actions beyond whichever country they currently happen to be dismembering. Even then, it's perfectly possible to avoid coalitions provided that you don't expect to be able to directly annex vast territories in a single war.

It would be nice if coalition formation was linked to country size. For example, if Ulster annexes a neighboring Irish province, no-one should care aside from other Irish minors and maybe England. If the Ottomans eat a chunk of Hungary, however, that should draw the attention of the surrounding major powers.
 

Topsy Cret

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I just dropped another game when apparently anything in 3province radius decided to coalition me... for reconquering 3 of my cores as sweden. Seriously Polen, get the hell off, you don't even have ships!

... You were using the Independence CB when you took the provinces, which has a very high AE cost. I realize this is off-topic, but perhaps the Independence CB should only have a 25% AE cost for reconquest.