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Mulleks

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I completely understand it being undesirable for the game to be incredibly easy and allowing for a player to put forth minimal effort to paint the map their chosen color. What I dont understand is how AE/Coalitions are a fun, interesting mechanic that a player can use, work around, or play to their benefit. The three ways a player can reduce or avoid AE/Coalitions are that the player can create a vassal, a player can sometimes even manage to do this peacefully, a player can get lucky and create a PU. All of these actions take 10-50 years to result in a minor province gain.

I would say my current main criticisms of the AE/OE system other than it's not fun, nor interesting would be that it doesnt scale along with your current cored province count like every other system does. Taking Romagna as Ancona is just as terrifying to a nation as Austria taking a province. Instead of scaling the challenge for a player it presents stopgates involving speed 5 until your AE drops. The reason you do this as AI nations dont drop their Coalitions until you've close to zeroed out their AE.

I really wish Paradox would take sometime to discuss their views on the AE/OE system, What they feel players should be able to accomplish. Was what Prawnstar did on his EU3 AARs intended? I loved EU3 for some of the insane, cool, wonderful things I've seen people do there. With EU4 it's like every time someone accomplishes something wonderful they block it off and tighten down the game.
 

gornard

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Paradox uses them as a block against rapid expansion because winning easily is not much fun either. In my opinion they still need adjustment. I'm not sure if you played eu3, but the previous system used infamy or bad boy which was a single score that affected oppinion across the board and gave enemies a free cb above a certain threshold. Ae and coalitions are a more dynamic version of that.
 

eigervue

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i think its a pretty fair system actually as its all regionally based, taking out the turkish states pisses off the muslim neighbors, but isnt pissing off my neighbors in europe like the infamy modifier would in eu3, im guessing it could be a little rougher in europe proper (so far ive played aragon, england and byzantium without any serious problems with coalitions, i mean, france is in and out of a coalition vs me in the england game, but who cares, i sink their battleships), especially as a smaller country but look at european history, there were all kinds of coalitions and nations coming together to stop one country from getting too powerful. My suggestion is to improve relations with the strongest power in the coalition while you focus on expansion in another region

also that advisor dude that improves relations, get him

like others said, this game is supposed to be time consuming, if you want to conquer europe in under two hours, play civilization

my problem with coalitions is i joined a coalition against France and so did burgundy and provence, but when i dow'd france as england, burgundy and provence didnt join for some reason :/
 

Mulleks

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Balance and realism > your subjective concept of "fun".

Balance can be fun. Balance can be something you can work with where it's intuitive and well designed. Not something where you click a province and see "You'll take 11AE for this province." You then recieve 22-33 AE with every surrounding nation and some lesser number for other neighbors.

I did play EU3, It was fun though the Magistrate/Diplomat system redo in EU4 is far far better. Badboy so far seems to be a much more viable system, with the BB system you fought wars against practically the whole world at somepoint but if you had the might to win said wars you were no longer stuck with Truces blocking you. I really fail to understand how if you're the world's version of Satan and the most evil person alive taking nations and land with no thought to international diplomacy why you suddenly have such concern that you must honor peace treaties. The coalitions are able to be delt with, the resulting truces are the real punative portion of them.

It's some bizarre hamfisted combination of mechanics and conflicting views about how the game should be played. Paradox needs to answer "Should a player be able to do a WC with a major power starting in 1444 with the requirement of great skill" Imo, it should be a yes, with the case that Personal Unions should not be required for it to happen but that their happening should be considered luck that only makes it a little easier.
 

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You don't have to sit around doing nothing at speed 5. Go to war with your rivals and take their money and trade power - no AE for that. The only thing AE and coalitions prevent you from doing is quickly painting the map. That's exactly what many people like to do but it's ahistorical and this is a historical grand strat game. Mod it out if you want to map paint.
 

Fexcad

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Balance can be fun. Balance can be something you can work with where it's intuitive and well designed. Not something where you click a province and see "You'll take 11AE for this province." You then recieve 22-33 AE with every surrounding nation and some lesser number for other neighbors.

Not understanding the system doesn't make it flawed. Hover your cursor over where it says 11 AE on the peace deal screen, and a tool tip will pop up showing the actual AE you'll take. That 11 is increased or decreased based on multipliers, such as CB type, distance, religion, and culture.

The only actual problem with AE and peace deals is that certain circumstances will group multiple countries receiving about the same AE together and show only one of them.


Also, the original post is missing out on 2 of the 3 major ways to avoid AE.

Feeding cores back to vassals is extremely useful, and I believe that's what you meant. However, next time you're about to do a war of expansion, try these two:

1) Figure out which provinces you want in advance, and/or adjust your expectations based on the culture and religion of said provinces. For instance, taking Catholic Polish land from Poland will piss off central Europe. Taking Ruthenian Orthodox land from Lithuania will do considerably less angering.

2) Form alliances with major powers that would be offended. In the above example, Muscovy and Novgorod are going to hate you for taking those Orthodox lands, but they won't care if you ally them first. Don't CTA them and if you need to, drop the alliances afterwards. -50 from broken alliance will melt away quickly and won't put them in a coalition.
 

dharper

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I find coalitions fun.

They act as an obstacle to overcome, and force you to think strategically and take advantage of opportunities.

In addition, they can make an impossible situation possible, by joining in coalitions against a much stronger rival. I had a game as Byzantium in which I was able to defeat the Ottomans by joining a coalition against them, and it was terrific fun. :)
 

Nilmerf

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Coalitions are a neat mechanic in theory, but need a bit of work. 10 nation coalitions against a minor country for taking a couple provinces are neither historical nor fun. It could be less focused on AE and more focused on threat and power. France forming a potential PU with Spain for example.
 

marnues

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Coalitions are amazing. My first game of EU4 was in 1.4 and I had very few wars that I didn't choose. I was very aggressively expanding as Sweden and should have been stopped by a large coalition just as the real world Sweden was. However, I only lost a single war and and I brokered it to white peace since Spain couldn't get to me. France, England, and the HRE should have stopped me at some point while I solely ate the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Muscovy. Since that was so easy, I ended up vassalizing 4 electors and took over the HRE, which was much too easy to absorb through all those Eastern European lands I owned and then releasing large vassals. Strong coalitions should have slowed my progress at several steps.

Now I'm trying Brandenburg and Muscovy, and both feel much more difficult. I found out that Muscovy earns no AE for eating the Hordes, so I figured I'd see what happened after taking a huge chunk out of Novgorod. Not a surprise, I had such a massive coaltion coming after me that I hid my troops in Perm and gave back most of what I had just won from Novgorod.

Slow expansion because I have to worry about the ire of my fellows rather than artificial roadblocks is fun. Without coalitions, international diplomacy is not important enough. Now I need good allies and I have to work to keep them. I can't assume that France will remain at peace with me while I tear apart the HRE. Complexity is fun!
 

Zander

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Taking Romagna as Ancona is just as terrifying to a nation as Austria taking a province.

They probably should put back in some kind of scaling AE based on your size - though perhaps not as much as in the old system, if that was felt to be excessive. But some of the complaints about coalitions now could be dealt with if tiny nations earned somewhat less. And it's reasonable for large nations to earn more, though presumably there should be some upper limit just for reasons of fun, and encouraging moderation rather than world wars.
 

FrosT37

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You don't have to sit around doing nothing at speed 5. Go to war with your rivals and take their money and trade power - no AE for that. The only thing AE and coalitions prevent you from doing is quickly painting the map. That's exactly what many people like to do but it's ahistorical and this is a historical grand strat game. Mod it out if you want to map paint.
+1

Couldn't have said better :)
 

Morgan Wight

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They probably should put back in some kind of scaling AE based on your size - though perhaps not as much as in the old system, if that was felt to be excessive. But some of the complaints about coalitions now could be dealt with if tiny nations earned somewhat less. And it's reasonable for large nations to earn more, though presumably there should be some upper limit just for reasons of fun, and encouraging moderation rather than world wars.

Some of us were advocating this before the scaling was ever removed, but I don't know . . . for some reason moderate changes just aren't PI's style.
 

Morgan Wight

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Balance and realism > your subjective concept of "fun".

The thing is, they could both inhibit expansion and be fun. Provoking them probably shouldn't ever compete with avoiding them as far as efficiency goes, but it would be neat if fighting coalitions was viable as an enhanced difficulty playstyle, an expert route of sorts - much more challenging, somewhat (key word there) less rewarding/efficient, and entertaining in a way that is distinct from the coalition avoidance tack. That is, if you're going for a WC, you would probably still be better served by rotating theaters and letting the coalition decay, but if you want to play a more reckless, bombastic type of game that actually puts your nation at existential risk, then by all means, go for it. Coalitions should be much more than a punitive failure state.
 

Jomini

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Balance and realism > your subjective concept of "fun".

There is nothing balanced or realistic about the current coalition dynamics.

Let's start with history. The first major peace of the EU era, The Peace of Thorn, involved Poland taking four provinces from the Tuetonic Order. If you load up the history database during the war, Poland has no claims nor any AE reductions. Doing this historical peace gives you a wildly ahistorical outcome - Poland ending up facing a coalition against everyone to whom it is not allied; in reality the Teutonic Order withdrew from Polish politics and nobody else gave a damn about Polish expansion. Well what else? Well in 1453-1463 the Ottoman Empire annexed (with no claims, except maybe one): Constantinople, Morea, Athens, most of Bosnia, and most of Serbia. You can also arguably through in vassalizations of Wallachia and Moldavia. The coalition from that tends to involve just about every Christian remotely nearby. Who went into coalition against the Ottoman Empire - at worst Hungary and maybe a few merchant states. Well what about the Italian Wars? Well the League of Venice formed before France took any territory and after all did so as a result of France accepting a throne claim against an excommunicated monarch. Following the initial war, France took out all of Milan (something like 100 AE) and nobody did anything for a quarter of a century. Spain, of course deposed the Neapolitan King and directly conquered the place, and no coalitions formed. The Muscovite Lithuanian wars? Enough AE to put every Catholic on the Russian borders into an alliance somehow resulted in precisely nothing like a coalition against Muscovy. And I can go on, and on, and on. War of Spanish Succession, the Napoleonic Wars, the Mughal Conquests, etc. All of this is utterly ahistorical, pretty much every historical peace was either status quo ante bellum ... or involved more land changing hands than you can do without tripping long lasting coalitions in EUIV.

But what about balance? Don't make me laugh. Is it balanced that Trier taking two provinces is deemed as more of a threat to the HRE than the OE Bosnia, Iraq, and Kaffa? Or that if I get detected fabricating a claim (something done routinely throughout the era, by everyone) it has a bigger malus than actually territory in some situations. Or that landlocked countries are utterly and totally screwed compared to people who can hit Muslims, Christians, and maybe even Eastern Religions and Pagans. Or consider the risk/reward. You beat a coalition consisting of France, Sweden, Spain, England, and Austria, your "balanced" reward is less than you can manage just against Russia alone. Or somehow it is "balanced" that the magical AE timer trumps every single other strategic consideration ... please - Sweden is going through a peasant's war with some pretender rebels running around with Russian troops invading Finland. Should I invade and take their Baltic coast or not? Nope, I'm too close to the AE threshold. It is less expensive and a far better choice to wait 10 years, let Sweden rebuild its army and then invade for two province than to hit them when they are weak. The balance between AE and every other strategic concern in the game tips to AE in 95% of cases or more.

Pugman
You don't have to sit around doing nothing at speed 5. Go to war with your rivals and take their money and trade power - no AE for that. The only thing AE and coalitions prevent you from doing is quickly painting the map. That's exactly what many people like to do but it's ahistorical and this is a historical grand strat game. Mod it out if you want to map paint.
And that accomplishes what? Money is pretty much worthless once you become a major power and start efficiently using mercs. Trade power is a joke, it gives you money - if you are actually in a position to capitalize it might be worth something, but it is dead in 5 years. But don't I actually hurt my enemies? Well you can burn their manpower pool and force up their WE ... but I have found that I lose more troops to rebels than I kill of the enemy. Worse if you do start nuking the AI bad with low manpower and and high WE, then you can break them back to 0 stab and gift them a bunch of troops thanks to a bunch of big rebel spawns.

In short about the only thing worth anything for such an AE-less war is sinking ships ... but that is also what you can do when you declare war anyways. And of course, these being your rivals, you pretty much can't keep them out of the coalitions: -50 rival, -25 competing superpower, -15 declared war, pretty much alone will drive any rival with any AE into coalition. Add in the normal crap - Border friction, has claim, has CB, wrong religion, allied to rival, wants my provinces, conquered province same religion, and of course the AE relations hit itself. Going to war with your rivals for trivial amounts of gold (either directly or via trade power) is so totally not worth it. If your rivals, by some small miracle, aren't already in a coalition, they will be heading there shortly thanks to your war nuking relations further. If they are already in a coalition, good luck with that "trade power" and cash thing, you can either wait for the war score timer to tick up to 25% and then farm battles or actually go siege places (like 20) and wait for the coalition to realize that it has been beaten.

I mean, if the game gave me anything useful for 0 AE, it would be one thing, but for any real war your cost/benefit ratio is utter crap for anything but returning cores or releasing nations. This, of course, requires vassals with old cores on the land in question, but of course many places lack such cores and over half of those expire in the first half of the game.


I'm very interested in hearing why people enjoy coalitions - particularly as there are millions of balanced and historical ways to improve the mechanism. But so far most of this is from stuff that doesn't hinge on coalitions (they actually don't declare on you if you are sufficiently stronger, and strong alliances behave quite similarly) or stuff that is just downright wrong.
 

Me_

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The way I see it AE and coalitions are just another challenge that the game throws at you, like ruler stats, stability or comets. Something to overcome, not enjoy itself.
 

TheMeInTeam

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The way I see it AE and coalitions are just another challenge that the game throws at you, like ruler stats, stability or comets. Something to overcome, not enjoy itself.

You could make strong cases against those mechanics too, though they're less broken and less changed so getting less attention.
 

kuolema

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Feb 17, 2014
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You don't have to sit around doing nothing at speed 5. Go to war with your rivals and take their money and trade power - no AE for that. The only thing AE and coalitions prevent you from doing is quickly painting the map. That's exactly what many people like to do but it's ahistorical and this is a historical grand strat game. Mod it out if you want to map paint.

Apart from everything Jomini mentioned, from a historical perspective waring just for ducats (which you don't even need more of) is silly when the game mechanics mean that more often than not wars are landslides one way or the other. So you reduce your rival's army to 0 men, purposely take less than you could from the peace deal, watch as all neighbouring countries dogpile on them, and then as they're reduced to half size with crippling war exhaustion, poor prestige, low manpower and being over run with rebels, you sit there and stare at them. "Wow, that sure looks like some nice land over there. Completely undefended too. Oh well, maybe in 20 years when their military is built back up." Yeah, that's historical grand strategy right there.

Historical grand strategy would involve struggles for power. If you're intentionally curbing your country's own growth to be 'historical', there's nothing historical about it.

In my current game as Japan I have a worthless coalition against me made up of the little that's left of Asia, I'll eat them when I have some spare vassal slots, and since I want to take India slowly due to the 'historical' AE, and also because I won't be able to vassalise anything below Muslim tech after I westernize, I'm now conquering Africa during the down time. It's basically just feeding trade value to Europe since I'm colonising there too. And this behaviour was directly encouraged by your historical AE. In fact I never even thought about doing such an ahistorical thing until I thought about how best to deal with 1.5's AE. So, I can ahistorically paint the map, or ahistorically collect more ducats than I can use (as if my neighbours have any left) and deal with an ahistorical near-absence of inflation. At least expanding like crazy is less ahistorical than a leader purposely refraining from becoming more powerful.

Historically speaking, maybe at this stage I should be experiencing some kind of challenge in running such a wide spanning empire, but instead of working on such historical features paradox has been expending resources changing the hard caps every patch. For people who are so obsessed with historical accuracy you all seem strangely supportive of gamey hardcaps, when you could be arguing for features that encourage struggles over power, or more strategic reasons for what particular land to take and why, or whatever. The size of your country doesn't make the game historical, the decisions you make do. I should be making decisions on how to defend myself and how to wrest power from my neighbours. Instead you're making decisions to purposely limit your own power to keep things 'historical'... Or if you ask yourself how to beat the obstacles in your way you just end up circumventing the whole thing anyway - because the challenges aren't historical. It's just ahistorical gameplay with some hardcaps superimposed over the top.

More to the point, you make all these arguments about being historical, and then you suggest that while people are waiting for their aggressive reputations to cool down, they can kill time by declaring war on their neighbours and taking ducats and tradepower. Really? So if I'm at a stage where I couldn't make just one more claim fabrication without a coalition forming against me, I could even spend the next several decades enveloping the entire continent in bloody warefare, killing hundreds of thousands of people, looting country sides and sending governments bankrupt, and then go conquer more provinces because everyone stopped thinking I'm aggressive? Wow, that sounds realistic and historical.
 

Hardeknut

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I really like the way coalitions Work in 1.5. Without them there would be even less challenge in an already extremly easy game. Anything that makes the game harder is a good thing. An experienced EU player can make any 1 province minor into a superpower but at least now it cant be done quickly.

Now I agree that coalitions is a bigger challenge for central European nations since they are forced to expand only in Europe but then you just have to adapt your strategy and take it slow.