How About Removing the Ottoman Cores on Ramazan and Dulkadir?

[Grand Historian]

At the suggestion of @PiriReis , I would like to suggest the Ottomans loose their starting cores on Ramazan and Dulkadir, and instead have them replaced with missions to vassalize and later annex them. Considering that Sweden recently lost their cores on Scania, I feel that this does indeed justify the removal of the Ottoman Cores on these two countries, as they were only occupied for an exceedingly brief time and soon regained their independence - Ramazan even kept theirs (autonomously, at least), until 1609. In addition to making it more historically accurate, both me and Piri agree that this would also diversify Ottoman gameplay and make the region a bit more interesting - and perhaps give some of the Beys a longer lifespan.

 

[Chamboozer]

Sure, there's no reason not to remove the cores.

Ramazan even kept theirs (autonomously, at least), until 1609.

Not exactly. During the reign of Selim I the Ramazanoğlu family was integrated into the Ottoman system of provincial government. They were allowed to continue governing the province on a hereditary basis and with a large income; they did not maintain an autonomous administration, but had to adopt the Ottoman model.

 

[Me_]

The Ottomans unite Anatolia way too fast. This in turn makes them engage the Mamluks way too early as well. I think that all Anatolian Beyliks and Albania should be free of Ottoman cores and their integration should be carried out via missions. At most, there could be an event/decisions giving the Ottomans cores on Anatolia.

 

[Orange1861]

Well, Candar was part of the Ottomans by 1444.

 

[grommile]

This would, in all honesty, make the Ottomans less interesting to play, since it would mean more waiting (for truce timers to expire and claims to finish, since you now have to either cycle your diplomats vigorously or eat the beyliks one at a time) without any interesting gameplay to compensate.

ETA: It also seems like it would effectively be an unneeded buff to Polblob.

 

[Grand Historian]

Not exactly. During the reign of Selim I the Ramazanoğlu family was integrated into the Ottoman system of provincial government. They were allowed to continue governing the province on a hereditary basis and with a large income; they did not maintain an autonomous administration, but had to adopt the Ottoman model.

Ah, thank you for pointing that out.

This would, in all honesty, make the Ottomans less interesting to play, since it would mean more waiting (for truce timers to expire and claims to finish, since you now have to either cycle your diplomats vigorously or eat the beyliks one at a time) without any interesting gameplay to compensate.

ETA: It also seems like it would effectively be an unneeded buff to Polblob.

You do know the Ottomans can expand in multiple directions, right? And three provinces won't be so much a buff to Poland as it would be to the Mamluks.

 

[grommile]

... you're quite right. I think I got distracted by Me_'s "remove all the TUR cores from provinces they don't own at game start" version of the proposal.

 

[Me_]

This would, in all honesty, make the Ottomans less interesting to play, since it would mean more waiting (for truce timers to expire and claims to finish, since you now have to either cycle your diplomats vigorously or eat the beyliks one at a time) without any interesting gameplay to compensate.

ETA: It also seems like it would effectively be an unneeded buff to Polblob.

Given that Ottomans can simply change direction of expansion and conquest missions give claims I fail to see how either of those points would apply. The main change would be that the Ottomans would need to pay some ADM points to core those areas.The only real timer would be how fast one can accrue ADM points.

Given that at the moment Ottomans are the most dynamic nation in regards to expansion sans hordes (and hordes are going to be slowed down in 1.15), I don't think that bringing them down just a tiny bit would hurt Ottoman players much. It would simply mean 10-or so more year longer WC. On the other hand, it would make playing anyone else in the area less of a race against the Ottoman super-fast conquest.

 

[grommile]

Given that Ottomans can simply change direction of expansion and conquest missions give claims I fail to see how either of those points would apply. The main change would be that the Ottomans would need to pay some ADM points to core those areas.

And would get them at 40% LA (with claims) instead of 0%.

 

[Grand Historian]

And would get them at 40% LA (with claims) instead of 0%.

Well, it's not like the Ottoman's didn't have to make local concessions even when conquering lands that the game considers their cores.

 

[Chamboozer]

Well, it's not like the Ottoman's didn't have to make local concessions even when conquering lands that the game considers their cores.

Yeah, high LA is right on the mark as far as representing the situation in Adana after its annexation. Other parts of Anatolia, like Karaman, not so much. Certainly keep the cores there.

 

[Itchel]

na na na, The ottomans already don't expand as much as they did IRL(when played as an ai), i'd rather not have them nerfed.

 

[Zoe1444]

So vassalizing them, even with your cores, is already a good idea since you're saving a lot more points when you conquer Mamluks with the -50% overseas core creation cost. The provinces that are overseas also continue to tick their autonomy down (hidden they remain at 75% until connected to the capital). This is extremely powerful and pretty much exclusive to this area of the world since there are three different continents in a small area. The only other common area for this to happen is Russia conquering in Asia from Siberia. They really need to add some sort of trade off for doing this cut off move, encouraging it by telling Ottoman players to vassalize these two with missions and removing the cores is not a good addition with this in mind.

 

[grommile]

encouraging it by telling Ottoman players to vassalize these two with missions and removing the cores is not a good addition with this in mind.

You do know that Aq Qoyunlu is already the perfect tool for that manoeuvre, right?

And there is a tradeoff, though it may not be strong enough: you can't get those provinces below 75% local autonomy until you annex your separator vassal.

 

[Zoe1444]

You do know that Aq Qoyunlu is already the perfect tool for that manoeuvre, right?

And there is a tradeoff, though it may not be strong enough: you can't get those provinces below 75% local autonomy until you annex your separator vassal.

At which point they reduce to the amount they would be if you hadn't cut yourself off. You paid half the coring cost for a bit of money and manpower that you aren't exactly stressed for as Ottomans seeing how strongly you start.