How about an event chain to westernise Russia?

[1alexey]

How's number of deaths from diseases or wounds is less important as indication of military development (it's all about logistics, medicine and planning after all.)?

Is it? If deaths from disease are serious factor, and it was in EU time frame, it is as important as direct military prowess.

Besides, poorly organised logistics does mean that army is poorly organised, as logistics is the most important thing to properly organize in an army.

 

[nicechinos]

so you are saying....

you won't look at the citations because my image of an approximated value FROM the citations LINKED in the SAME POST

made you decide that they were not 'worth it'

while SIMULTANEOUSLY

asking for the SOURCE of the image...

lol.... You are trolling yes?

I have pneumonia and don't want to deal with this if you are not trying to be genuine.

Not even remotely trying to troll. There's a certain mechanics related to debates. You present your case, reasoning. If your reasoning your questioned you have to present references. If multiple sources are available you have to have strong reasons for selecting this particular. Moreover, you picked the highest estimate which is not particularly consistent with other. If are you willing to stand by these numbers this is fine by me but you do need to present good reasoning why these numbers should be used and not ones I enclosed. My numbers largely invalidate your reasoning.

 

[birincikalite]

Agreed but the event chain shouldn't let them negate all the negative effects of westernising, just some of them.

 

[nicechinos]

you are quite good at totally manipulating a situation, taking it entirely from its context, misappropriating the variables, and then throwing out what you seem to think is a rebuttal.

The only issue is, i was talking about the severe drop in russian innovation leading up to the crimean war compared to the western neighbors...
IE a lack in the speed at which research was finished and implemented... Which is the basis of what westernization is/does in eu4 is it not?

....sooooooooo

you can tell ME what I'm saying that is anywhere near to france's prussian conflict (which one do you even mean btw.)

because the REASON for russias massive defeat WAS the detrimental technological situation...

"severe drop in russian innovation leading up" Mmm??? That's a new argument.

Ad hominem is a capitulation by throwing out white flag. Thank you, your case is rebuffed. It was nice talking to you. Get well soon. Read economist, educate yourself.

"russias massive defeat WAS the detrimental technological situation." Right and horrific coalition victory is not?

 

[Taterthomp2]

What I'm saying and what you seem to be missing is the fact how here in EU4 we've got both military tech AND tech groups; by your logic we can pick a pair of European countries and put the losing side to the inferior tech group instead of just admitting it was a level or two behind in MIL tech, speaking in EU 4 terms.

No one says GB and France didn't have certain tech advantage during that war, mostly by getting rifles before Russia. So what? Would that mean that Soviet Union launching man into space instantly 'de-westernized' everyone including the USA?

i think it's silly to assume that when they were the first by a small margin, and not for lack of trying.

do you ever wonder why the most nations don't even have a space program until much later than russia + usa?

its because during cold war, there was no "westernization" there was an arms race between the two superpowers left on the planet, and neither of them was completely ahead of the other for almost the entire run of it. it's like saying russia had a level 31 dip and 29 adm, 30 mil while america had 31 adm, 29 dip, 30 mil or something of the sort? that is a difference in only technology, not total technological progression.

 

[nicechinos]

i think it's silly to assume that when they were the first by a small margin, and not for lack of trying.

do you ever wonder why the most nations don't even have a space program until much later than russia + usa?

its because during cold war, there was no "westernization" there was an arms race between the two superpowers left on the planet, and neither of them was completely ahead of the other for almost the entire run of it. it's like saying russia had a level 31 dip and 29 adm, 30 mil while america had 31 adm, 29 dip, 30 mil or something of the sort? that is a difference in only technology, not total technological progression.

Man into space was before the cold war. He proved an important point. You can't fit EU4 tech abstraction into real life. "do you ever wonder why the most nations don't even have a space program until much later than russia + usa?" Your question does support his case fairly obviously invalidating yours.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Not even remotely trying to troll. There's a certain mechanics related to debates. You present your case, reasoning. If your reasoning your questioned you have to present references. If multiple sources are available you have to have strong reasons for selecting this particular. Moreover, you picked the highest estimate which is not particularly consistent with other. If are you willing to stand by these numbers this is fine by me but you do need to present good reasoning why these numbers should be used and not ones I enclosed. My numbers largely invalidate your reasoning.

i picked the first estimate that was laid out in a table i found when i bothered to google for citations that you clearly already knew about, but for some odd reason, didn't understand and needed sources for.

and i did present TONS of citations.

and encouraged you to read them...

and you

refused

so i don't see what the 'proper etiquette of debate" is doing being talked about by you lol

asking for the source of an image where the source was listed before the image, only proves you were unwilling to do anything BUT question nonstop and never accept any evidence.

I see you as either a troll, a biased biggot, or a very arrogant person...

It frustrates me greatly that you kept asking for the source of the image, i had assumed you ought to KNOW the source, because well

the source was in the same post...
it only served to prove to me you were not trying to effectively come to understanding, ONLY trying to further your point through attacks on my character + ability to argue, which is VERY IRONIC I MENTION ONCE AGAIN since i am citing TONS of sources that you REFUSE TO BOTHER WITH

so no... you really don't get to tell me about the form of proper debate.

 

[ekorovin]

Anywho, I just love to play continent-sized, colonial power as un-Westernized Russia. It's like XIX century empire in terms of size and power, but with Muscovite beards. What's not to love?

 

[Taterthomp2]

Man into space was before the cold war. He proved an important point. You can't fit EU4 tech abstraction into real life. "do you ever wonder why the most nations don't even have a space program until much later than russia + usa?" Your question does support his case fairly obviously invalidating yours.

sputnik is one of the things taht SPARKED the cold war into serious being and created a huge sense of competitive anti-communist nature in american propaganda...


if they can get to space, what else can they do?!

where do you get this train of thought you show?

 

[nicechinos]

i picked the first estimate that was laid out in a table i found when i bothered to google for citations that you clearly already knew about, but for some odd reason, didn't understand and needed sources for.

and i did present TONS of citations.

and encouraged you to read them...

and you

refused

so i don't see what the 'proper etiquette of debate" is doing being talked about by you lol

asking for the source of an image where the source was listed before the image, only proves you were unwilling to do anything BUT question nonstop and never accept any evidence.

I see you as either a troll, a biased biggot, or a very arrogant person...

It frustrates me greatly that you kept asking for the source of the image, i had assumed you ought to KNOW the source, because well

the source was in the same post...
it only served to prove to me you were not trying to effectively come to understanding, ONLY trying to further your point through attacks on my character + ability to argue, which is VERY IRONIC I MENTION ONCE AGAIN since i am citing TONS of sources that you REFUSE TO BOTHER WITH

so no... you really don't get to tell me about the form of proper debate.

War with CB "Defence of glorious Motherland". Taterthomp2 has accepted our generous peace offer. Taterthomp2 will concede defeat. Ekorovin, DicRoNero and Nicechinos get 10 prestige.

 

[Taterthomp2]

if you compare staticistics. as many russians died of direct warfare, as died of disease?

while about 1/3rd on the british and french... ._.

 

[ekorovin]

sputnik is one of the things taht SPARKED the cold war into serious being and created a huge sense of competitive anti-communist nature in american propaganda...


if they can get to space, what else can they do?!

where do you get this train of thought you show?

I literally have no idea what are you trying to say by this point.

 

[nicechinos]

Anywho, I just love to play continent-sized, colonial power as un-Westernized Russia. It's like XIX century empire in terms of size and power, but with Muscovite beards. What's not to love?

Anyhow, agreed on that. No sense in getting westernized since you enjoy Western Arms Trade with livonians. Loosing all the mil tradition sucks badly.

 

[Taterthomp2]

War with CB "Defence of glorious Motherland". Taterthomp2 has accepted our generous peace offer. Taterthomp2 will concede defeat. Ekorovin, DicRoNero and Nicechinos get 10 prestige.

i can't see how you are not a troll. this is blatant flaming...
do you suppose that if i had asked you to cite your sources for how i was wrong, in any way, you could, and would, and then i could ignore them, and then magically 'win' the argument?

are you also, by chance, a 12 year old boy? Oh look, i'm getting caustic as well.

Perhaps it's a result of your collective egotism.

 

[FreeSoc]

sputnik is one of the things taht SPARKED the cold war into serious being and created a huge sense of competitive anti-communist nature in american propaganda...

Really? Even though stuff like the Berlin Blockade and all the coups in Eastern Europe had occurred 10 years earlier and the Red Scare took place in the early '50s, you're citing Sputnik as a key cause of the Cold War?

Anyhow, agreed on that. No sense in getting westernized since you enjoy Western Arms Trade with livonians. Loosing all the mil tradition sucks badly.

There's really no point in Westernising as *any* Eastern Tech nation, especially with the Western Arms trade.

 

[Taterthomp2]

I literally have no idea what are you trying to say by this point.

"they launched a man into space before cold war"

"sputnik was what sparked much of the cold war."

"I literally have no idea what you are trying to say by this point"

:| don't you?

 

[nicechinos]

sputnik is one of the things taht SPARKED the cold war into serious being and created a huge sense of competitive anti-communist nature in american propaganda...


if they can get to space, what else can they do?!

where do you get this train of thought you show?

I'm really not willing to chat about this anymore. Useless. Five ad hominems don't help discussion. Get well soon. If you want Economist style discussion (grown-up next time!) with numbers, sources (not "see for yourself dumbie") and strong case I'll be willing to consider it. Otherwise, get well soon. EU4 is just a game, don't take it seriously. Best wishes and cheers.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Really? Even though stuff like the Berlin Blockade and all the coups in Eastern Europe had occurred 10 years earlier and the Red Scare took place in the early '50s, you're citing Sputnik as a key cause of the Cold War?



There's really no point in Westernising as *any* Eastern Tech nation, especially with the Western Arms trade.

in propaganda and the space age.

it was a major step in the arms race

interestingly enough

you can RESEARCH THIS

yes
there is information
online
for free
wow people.

honestly.

i said it sparked the cold war propaganda to compete with russia for space.

 

[FreeSoc]

in propaganda and the space age.

it was a major step in the arms race

interestingly enough

you can RESEARCH THIS

yes
there is information
online
for free
wow people.

honestly.

i said it sparked the cold war propaganda to compete with russia for space.

What you actually *said* was, and I quote, "Sputnik was one of the things that sparked the Cold War into serious being". The word "propaganda" is not actually mentioned in the first, key, clause of your initial contention, so please don't treat me with this smarmy condescending patronising nonsense when you're twisting your own argument to deal with the fact that you're wrong.

It helped cause the Arms Race, true, but it was not a major cause of the Cold War or the renewed tension between America and the USSR in the late '50s and early '60s.

Also, higher Russian combat deaths against a vast enemy coalition is not really indicative of Russian inferiority.

 

[Beagá]

Really?

There's really no point in Westernising as *any* Eastern Tech nation, especially with the Western Arms trade.

That´s because the modifier is as stupid as giving the -10% tech cost.

It´s so stupid, that despite being a TRADE, it comes for free.

Enough said