How about an event chain to westernise Russia?

[DicRoNero]

Look at Napoleonic war and tell me they didn't. Or what, Spain somehow de-westernized before US-Spanish war? And really, what was so catastrophic about CW? Russia (say, power #3) fought with GB (#1), France (#2), Ottomans (6 or something) and Sardinia-Peidmont (like 10). Experiences defeats on one of the fronts (Crimean), but enemies fair hardly better (losing bloody commanders-in-chief to epidemics and displaying outstanding idiocy like charge of the Light Brigade). On the other front, Caucasian, Russia achieves victory. Then Austria-Hungary (#5) makes an ultimatum, and Russia decides to peace out,accepting defeat. How the hell it shows that Russia wasn't westernized?

Nicely put, I couldn't have done it better myself.

But apparently being westernized now means 'having exactly the same tech level and weaponry at any given conflict'. This leaves us with an uncertainty of why have ingame tech levels in the first place, but v0v.

 

[Taterthomp2]

That's an opinion which is not backed by any evidence now. "it is just entirely fact that the russian army was organized very very poor, and they had fallen behind a lot in military technology too during that area." Opinion with no references to evidence. "Surely that's a very well-known fact that" is always rebuffed in debates unless magical "because" comes into play.

"though british lost a lot it was to cold and disease where russian lost a lot to the actual war. " That's wrong, direct casualties were broadly the same for opposing sides. How's number of deaths from diseases or wounds is less important for indication of military development (it's all about logistics, medicine and planning after all.)?

oh...ok... i will get you citations....

i see that you can't look it up for yourself....
1. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/the_crimean_war_1853-1856.htm
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War (particularly the image i will put following.)

I'm sorry, but it is fact... I did not realize you could not google thing for researching yourself. I can provide you with probably 6-700 citations as needed, through all 5 of my known languages....

i am not of the opinion that russia was technologically inferior in military matter.

it is fact. russian tsar knew so, and all the military did too. that is why they intiated SERIOUS social and political reform resulted from the war, such as ABOLISHING THE SERFDOM and SERF ARMIES WITH IT.

started training people in actual combatative warfare, not "here is a gun, you hunt bears, so just try to hunt the humans too, only they shoot back, and when the war is over, you can go back to your poor farm and scrounge barely living from the hard work after sacrificing you and your brethren in a chance game of warfare."

as a special summarisation please

read this...

as you can see the british outcry was over CONDITIONS of troops, not their ability to compete in warfare.

80,000 loss on russian side to warfare casualty. 2,800 on british side... :|

 

[nicechinos]

I'd like to see a source for the last table; it is unreferenced. I enclose this and this's British source after all. All estimates which I encountered range from 20-40 thds for both sides.

Michael G. Mulhall, Dictionary of Statistics (1892), p.587
Russia: 30600 kia + 42000 d. of wds. + 374000 d. of sickness = 446600 d
France: 8490 kia + 11750 dow + 75375 dos = 95615 d
Turkey: 10100 kia + 10800 dow + 24500 dos = 45400 d
UK: 2755 kia + 1847 dow + 17580 dos = 22182 d
TOTAL: 51945 kia + 66397 dow + 491455 dos = 609797

Pirogov meant that Russia was ahead in tech.

Nikolay Ivanovich Pirogov (Russian: Никола́й Ива́нович Пирого́в) (25 November [O.S. 13 November] 1810 – 5 December [O.S. 23 November] 1881) was a prominent Russian scientist, medical doctor, pedagogue, public figure, and corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences (1847). He is considered to be the founder of field surgery, and was one of the first surgeons in Europe to use ether as an anaesthetic. He was the first surgeon to use anaesthesia in a field operation (1847), invented various kinds of surgical operations, and developed his own technique of using plaster casts to treat fractured bones. He is one of the most widely recognized Russian physicians.

Abolition of serfdom is something I could agree with. Social development of Russia was inferior to that of France. I'm not going to argue with that. However, it doesn't mean that Russia was behind in military tech and wasn't westernized. Westernized doesn't mean western. Social development is not the same thing as tech. Social development is not represented in EU4.

You could really benefit from trying to have a somewhat more polite discussion.

 

[ekorovin]

What the hell? Serf armies? That's the funniest thing I've read in years. Tell me more about this secret weapon of Russia.

 

[DicRoNero]

i am not of the opinion that russia was technologically inferior in military matter.

it is fact.

Yes, like mil tech 11 vs 12/13. The impact of rifles was indeed that great, like having next unit type in EU notions. But what does this have to do with tech groups themselves?

 

[Taterthomp2]

...it isnt secret weapon... what are you talking about...


http://necrometrics.com/wars19c.htm#Crim
http://www.cwreenactors.com/~crimean/criwar.htm
http://maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2004/06/crimean-war-1853-1856-forces-and.html
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/kritika/v013/13.4.kozelsky.html

I don't know about you... but I think... I am having the upper hand

i can understand the argument against how it is "not westernization" but

the poitn of westernization iss that

in game
if you catch up after westernizing

YOU SHOULDNT FALL BEHIND SO FAR LATER ESPECIALLY WITH 10% TECH NI!

... :/ now go try and make fun of people elsewhere,

or better yet

DO RESEARCH

 

[nicechinos]

What the hell? Serf armies? That's the funniest thing I've read in years. Tell me more about this secret weapon of Russia.

Laughing on this, too. Serf-army vs free troops of enlightened Europe. Oh, my. Hollywood thinking detected.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Yes, like mil tech 11 vs 12/13. The impact of rifles was indeed that great, like having next unit type in EU notions. But what does this have to do with tech groups themselves?

was directly talking of the crimean war which happens outside game timeframe.. :\ because someone said that they were not inferior techonlogically, when russia entirely knew they were, and had to implement sweeping reforms from social to political and economic.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Laughing on this, too. Serf-army vs free troops of enlightened Europe. Oh, my. Hollywood thinking detected.

I'm an Undergrad of Cultural Anthropology from Iceland... I don't know where you get 'hollywood' out of the FACT that ... nevermind.

Do research please. I've provided you ample ability through links to avoid having to FIND it yourself.
stop being rude.

 

[Taterthomp2]

oh btw.

MORE reading for you who laugh at the serf-army http://www.historytoday.com/michael...an-serfs-1861-charter-freedom-or-act-betrayal

please... try to learn before mocking people for bothering to tell you things you clearly don't know about yet...

i was not being rude or mean...
and from teh start you think i was and thought i was making fun about the russia-ukraine situation!

i think you are TRYING to be rude for no reason, and ignoring legitimate historical fact in favor of personal attack..

 

[nicechinos]

...it isnt secret weapon... what are you talking about...


http://necrometrics.com/wars19c.htm#Crim
http://www.cwreenactors.com/~crimean/criwar.htm
http://maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2004/06/crimean-war-1853-1856-forces-and.html
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/kritika/v013/13.4.kozelsky.html

I don't know about you... but I think... I am having the upper hand

i can understand the argument against how it is "not westernization" but

the poitn of westernization iss that

in game
if you catch up after westernizing

YOU SHOULDNT FALL BEHIND SO FAR LATER ESPECIALLY WITH 10% TECH NI!

... :/ now go try and make fun of people elsewhere,

or better yet

DO RESEARCH

Please be so kind to reference exact source of casualties you enclosed. I dug into necrometrics already and not able to find number that you presented in yellow. Do not claim that you have upperhand unless the opposing side admits it. That's a sign of bad manners.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Please be so kind to reference exact source of casualties you enclosed. I dug into necrometrics already and not able to find number that you presented in yellow. Do not claim that you have upperhand unless the opposing side admits it. That's a sign of bad manners.

:| that image was taken straight out of one of my citations.

You ought to be very aware that it is a gross approximation and estimate.

If you want to where it is CITED from... BOTHER LOOKING AT THE LINKS.

if it seems i have bad manners, it is the mockery that is causing me to behave this way.

You are obviously ignoring my links and still continuing to suppose my inferiority because I do not agree, while for some strange reason, I am the only one PROVIDING sources. (and a multitude of them at that.)

Who is being rude here? I think you are... I even apologized when you misunderstood me and all you did was edit that entire post sequence out....

 

[nicechinos]

oh btw.

MORE reading for you who laugh at the serf-army http://www.historytoday.com/michael...an-serfs-1861-charter-freedom-or-act-betrayal

please... try to learn before mocking people for bothering to tell you things you clearly don't know about yet...

i was not being rude or mean...
and from teh start you think i was and thought i was making fun about the russia-ukraine situation!

i think you are TRYING to be rude for no reason, and ignoring legitimate historical fact in favor of personal attack..

How credible and acclaimed is this author? He surely likes Hollywood styled drama in his easy historical writings.


The Emancipation of the Russian Serfs, 1861: A Charter of Freedom or an Act of Betrayal?

Mao Zedong: Liberator or Oppressor of China?

The Roles of Lenin and Stalin in the Russian Revolution

Trotsky - Angel of Enlightenment or Frustrated Dictator?

The Scottish Early Modern Burgh

 

[DicRoNero]

was directly talking of the crimean war which happens outside game timeframe.. :\ because someone said that they were not inferior techonlogically, when russia entirely knew they were, and had to implement sweeping reforms from social to political and economic.

What I'm saying and what you seem to be missing is the fact how here in EU4 we've got both military tech AND tech groups; by your logic we can pick a pair of European countries and put the losing side to the inferior tech group instead of just admitting it was a level or two behind in MIL tech, speaking in EU 4 terms.

No one says GB and France didn't have certain tech advantage during that war, mostly by getting rifles before Russia. So what? Would that mean that Soviet Union launching man into space instantly 'de-westernized' everyone including the USA?

 

[nicechinos]

:| that image was taken straight out of one of my citations.

You ought to be very aware that it is a gross approximation and estimate.

If you want to where it is CITED from... BOTHER LOOKING AT THE LINKS.

I wouldn't do this because you have taken an extreme estimate (I feel that you are trying to back down ["a gross approximation and estimate"] but that's not how we roll) so you'll have hard time justifying it not me. Or it is rebuffed.

 

[ekorovin]

I don't know, I thought that recruiting in the army automatically un-serfed you, but since you seem to be such a great historian, perhaps you managed to find something sensational on topic. I'd suggest you write on serf armies, that's PhD from the get go, grants from Military History Society, Makary prize, that sort of things.

By the way, the fact that France got stomped by Prussia is attributed to de-westernization of France, am I right?

Edit: it's not that Russia didn't fall back from GB and France by the Crimean War, it's not like serfdom got nothing to do with it, though relationship was far more complex, then "serfdom- bad, ergo technological stagnation". And it's got nothing to do with "westernization", because a) there's no such thing in real life, it's EU4 abstraction of very diverse events and b) EU4 westernization is heavily based on Petrine reforms specifically, so to claim that Russia didn't undergo westernization in EU4 terms raises all sorts of questions like "who the hell underwent it then? Japanese reformation isn't even in timeframe."

 

[Novacat]

Considering that the current Westernization mechanic was specifically based off of Peter the Great's reforms... if Russia needs a special exception than it means the entire Westernization mechanic is a failure.

 

[Taterthomp2]

I wouldn't do this because you have taken an extreme estimate (I feel that you are trying to back down but that's not how we roll) so you'll have hard time justifying it not me. Or it is rebuffed.

so you are saying....

you won't look at the citations because my image of an approximated value FROM the citations LINKED in the SAME POST

made you decide that they were not 'worth it'

while SIMULTANEOUSLY

asking for the SOURCE of the image...

lol.... You are trolling yes?

I have pneumonia and don't want to deal with this if you are not trying to be genuine.

 

[nicechinos]

What I'm saying and what you seem to be missing is the fact how here in EU4 we've got both military tech AND tech groups; by your logic we can pick a pair of European countries and put the losing side to the inferior tech group instead of just admitting it was a level or two behind in MIL tech, speaking in EU 4 terms.

No one says GB and France didn't have certain tech advantage during that war, mostly by getting rifles before Russia. So what? Would that mean that Soviet Union launching man into space instantly 'de-westernized' everyone including the USA?

I wouldn't say that getting something earlier or later is valid reason in this case. Point-in-time comparison is much more useful.

 

[Taterthomp2]

I don't know, I thought that recruiting in the army automatically un-serfed you, but since you seem to be such a great historian, perhaps you managed to find something sensational on topic. I'd suggest you write on serf armies, that's PhD from the get go, grants from Military History Society, Makary prize, that sort of things.

By the way, the fact that France got stomped by Prussia is attributed to de-westernization of France, am I right?

you are quite good at totally manipulating a situation, taking it entirely from its context, misappropriating the variables, and then throwing out what you seem to think is a rebuttal.

The only issue is, i was talking about the severe drop in russian innovation leading up to the crimean war compared to the western neighbors...
IE a lack in the speed at which research was finished and implemented... Which is the basis of what westernization is/does in eu4 is it not?

....sooooooooo

you can tell ME what I'm saying that is anywhere near to france's prussian conflict (which one do you even mean btw.)

because the REASON for russias massive defeat WAS the detrimental technological situation...