Orthodox has decent and logical bonuses, agreed on that. Moreover patriarch authority decisions now involve gaining moneys or legitimacy at the expense of patriarch authority but the events, sadly, are much more rare than in 1.8.
How about an event chain to westernise Russia?
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Orthodox has decent and logical bonuses, agreed on that. Moreover patriarch authority decisions now involve gaining moneys or legitimacy at the expense of patriarch authority but the events, sadly, are much more rare than in 1.8.
well they hardly westernized anyways.
look at the crimean war and tell me they westernized... :S and that is AFTER this time frame.
You don't bring any reasoning to the discussion (only your opinion and opinions are biased) and that's the reason to dislike what you said.
Depends on what you want from religion. Orthodox gives you great stability, extra tolerance, extra manpower and rather hefty conversion chance, which is all great.By Christian standards it is; or would you argue that it's the weakest one among the group? Just don't mention Coptic, please
Yes, if you can control curia, you probably will get better bonus as catholic, and Muslims are still probably best religion overall, but aside from that, Orthodox is perfectly fine, and competitive with Protestants and Reformed, as it`s bonuses are just as useful.
My point however is that Orthodox is not bad. It is pretty good at what it is supposed to do, be a religion about internal stability, and with Russia, it can save you picking Religious or Tolerance, and just go for another idea group, which is quite good. Orthodox is not supposed to nerf Russia, it is perfectly good for it.
The only event should be to have St. Petersburg but since thats too easy there is no need, unless they try to overhaul the entire system
Agreed on that. Tweaks and minor changes to the bonuses could be discussed but overall Orthodox mechanics are well suited for all Orthodox nations in the game. Great Northern War comes to mind, which had some very nasty effects on population and the economy but still caused no major revolts in Russia.
Look at Napoleonic war and tell me they didn't. Or what, Spain somehow de-westernized before US-Spanish war? And really, what was so catastrophic about CW? Russia (say, power #3) fought with GB (#1), France (#2), Ottomans (6 or something) and Sardinia-Peidmont (like 10). Experiences defeats on one of the fronts (Crimean), but enemies fair hardly better (losing bloody commanders-in-chief to epidemics and displaying outstanding idiocy like charge of the Light Brigade). On the other front, Caucasian, Russia achieves victory. Then Austria-Hungary (#5) makes an ultimatum, and Russia decides to peace out,accepting defeat. How the hell it shows that Russia wasn't westernized?
??? I am not making a joke...
In the crimean war, russia was stomped by Great Britain and France in their interest to protect ottomon "sick man of europe"
the ONLY reason attributed to russias loss was TECHNOLOGY and TACTICS issues. their army was SEVERLEY under developed...
i was not making any joke... and I don't understand what you mean to say...
Some countries have University at the start of the game (however I think Poland is the only one non-western who has one). Also Western Arms trade also grants another 10% tech cost reduction so that could be also applied/or not.
Also as you could see, I was talking in the situation of CURRENT westernization model, and my ideas are a little tweaks, not complete overhaul.
oh wow... i just realize what you thought i was saying...
no....
the crimean war was a thing in the mid 19th century... has nothign to do with modern issues.
I would greatly prefer to just end the tyranny of tech groups altogether.
I once suggested a sliding scale of traditionalism and innovationism, and decisions that could move you one way or the other on that scale similar to Piety and Patriarch Authority, and a balancing act of bonuses and maluses that could be applied to make things balanced.
My idea was, traditionalist powers tech up more slowly, but get significant bonuses to stability and morale. That can mean that in the short term there's a distinct benefit to traditionalism, as long as you don't fall too far behind in technology. meanwhile if you race too far ahead of time simply for the sake of teching up, I'd expect maluses to morale and stability as society struggles with many new concepts at once. So instead of making westernization a one shot thing, make any technological leap forward bring some level of pain that you wouldn't be interested in soaking longterm if your tech level was already fine.
It would also mean that innovationism would be something easier for a small, tall nation to do as opposed to a massive one, since a massive one is already juggling several cultures within its borders and would be disproportionately hurt by a stability malus, giving small nations a chance to gain a technological edge and benefitting game balance.
I once suggested a sliding scale of traditionalism and innovationism, and decisions that could move you one way or the other on that scale similar to Piety and Patriarch Authority, and a balancing act of bonuses and maluses that could be applied to make things balanced.
My idea was, traditionalist powers tech up more slowly, but get significant bonuses to stability and morale. That can mean that in the short term there's a distinct benefit to traditionalism, as long as you don't fall too far behind in technology. meanwhile if you race too far ahead of time simply for the sake of teching up, I'd expect maluses to morale and stability as society struggles with many new concepts at once. So instead of making westernization a one shot thing, make any technological leap forward bring some level of pain that you wouldn't be interested in soaking longterm if your tech level was already fine.
It would also mean that innovationism would be something easier for a small, tall nation to do as opposed to a massive one, since a massive one is already juggling several cultures within its borders and would be disproportionately hurt by a stability malus, giving small nations a chance to gain a technological edge and benefitting game balance.
I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. Take a look at eKorovin's response. Russia defeated Sweden before that which was major European power in the timeframe which stomped everyone it wanted. You should bring reasoning why Russian defeat (and coalition Pyrrhic victory) is a sign that Russia was not westernised. If you take on coalition of GB, Ottomans and France as any western tech nation in EU4 you will be utterly crushed, right?
Does the famous Charge of the Light Brigade mean that GB wasn't Western after all? Does Hamilton-Gordon's resigning after the war means that GB was lacking tactics and army development?
You don't leave any meaning to chance in history. Try simulating 100 games in EU4 in observer mode and try to find 2 exactly the same. And reality is much more complex that harcoded NI's of Eu4. The decisive Inkerman battle could go the other way (and thus could go the war itself) if Menshikov wasn't a bad general. People do make mistakes.
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Agreed, tech groups are more of a burden to the game. Something closer to Vic2 would be preferable but it's not that kind of game Pdx says.
Afghanistan won a war or whitepeaced UK in the 1840s so western tech was not everything even at that point.
In gameplay terms you could argue that some native nations did westernise.
Russia got like the best Ideas of the game, easy western would make them even stronger then they are allready which may not be wanted.
In gameplay terms you could argue that some native nations did westernise.
Russia got like the best Ideas of the game, easy western would make them even stronger then they are allready which may not be wanted.
it is just entirely fact that the russian army was organized very very poor, and they had fallen behind a lot in military technology too during that area.
i am not saying that russia CANT westernize.
i am saying that it is not necessary thing for to happen no matter what.
i wouldnt mind that much either way ... but just pointing out
that 'enlightened time' didnt last much long... superior troop number, supply, war ferver, etc and still lost war. the phyric fact of the war is very over stated, as though british lost a lot it was to cold and disease where russian lost a lot to the actual war.
i do not hate russia, i like russia. my thoughts are just that westernization wasn't necesarliy what they have did.
more like catching up with the tech of the time. because clearly fell back away from it.
navy in particular was issue for russia, as they outnumbered GREATLY but severe lower quailty ship and naval tactic capability created a situation where they were more like a floating fortification and couldnt pursue royal navy int he baltic, only barely hold them off from capturing st petersburg etc.
Best ideas in the game? Are you serious on that? No quality bonuses at all. Puny +0.5 army tradition bonus? Have you checked Wallachia or some other new minors? Culture conversion bonus but not culture acceptance treshhold (but GB which eradticated natives massively gets one)?
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That's an opinion which is not backed by any evidence now. "it is just entirely fact that the russian army was organized very very poor, and they had fallen behind a lot in military technology too during that area." Opinion with no references to evidence. "Surely that's a very well-known fact that" is always rebuffed in debates unless magical "because" comes into play.
"though british lost a lot it was to cold and disease where russian lost a lot to the actual war. " That's wrong, direct casualties were broadly the same for opposing sides. How's number of deaths from diseases or wounds is less important as indication of military development (it's all about logistics, medicine and planning after all.)?
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in the only long game i played since aow got released, they westernized in 1600 way before me (i was theodoro)
way before me (i was theodoro)You do believe in a power of abstraction. Obviously eastern tech is better than western because eastern can into space and western doesn't.