How about a little slider reform?

[Hive]

I personally think that it's time we look at the sliders, of which some could use a bit of improvement. Here's my thoughts:

- naval/land
This slider shouldn't affect manpower at all, and should have a less impact on morale. It could affect support limit, though. And it could affect price on artillery as well, as it does with inf, cav, warships, galleys and transports. Finally, it could give a slight tax boost for provinces with land connection to capital for land powers (to balance the impressive bonus naval nations get to overseas tax income).

- free trade/mercantilism
This slider needs some tweaking to make free trade more benefitial. So just like mercantilism means more trade embargoes without getting a massive negative TE hit, how about free trade having the same effect on trade agreements? I propose that with full free trade, you can have 1 TA without penalty - and full free merc, you can have 1 embargo without penalty. And also, you could get only -1% TE for each TA at full trade (with a cap on 2 or 3), with the same going for embargos at full merc.

- narrowminded/innovative
This slider could need some tweaking as well. When narrowminded, there provinces with your state religion should be even more loyal 8eg. give more negative RR than usually) and perhaps even give a minor tax boost (like 5% or so). Also, therecould be a small bonus to converting when full narrowminded. Being fully innovative should still be superior though, and this is the way: remove/reduce the negative impact on having non-state cultures and religions. And then add more of the events that push you to narrowminded, to make it a bit more difficult to go there. Tech bonus for being innovative could be slightly tweaked down once more.

Thoughts?

 

[unmerged(5161)]

I dont know about you, but I have a big....."slider" if that is what you want to call it. And it doesnt need reform. But DP settings could use some tweaking. If only someone could propose those kinds of ideas...... Hrm.. I should get on that.

Hive, you know this proposal wont go anywhere coming from you or me. You have to get Slargos to propose it. Then....next day.....new patch, item fixed.

Other than those problems.....

I am Ryoken and I approve this message.

 

[devil]

uhh I agree with the boy from the closet

*puts on tin foil hat*

Starting mind control

 

[unmerged(5161)]

HOW ABOUT SOME DAMN REFORM PEOPLE!

I swear, the one time Hive has a good idea and it gets virtually no attention. We all know his ideas are usually lame, but this one is good. Get on board. Vote! Get involved in Paradox Democracy! The wind of a thousand whiners is what powers the turbines of Johan's patchmaking skills! Get those windpipes roaring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BOO YAA!!

 

[Sable_Rose]

I like the ideas as well.

 

[Fredrik82]

Well, i support Hives idea. So you have a Swedish ally now

 

[unmerged(18425)]

After spamming by Hive I came here and saw his ideas. They look fine to me.

Do I get a cookie now Hive?

 

[unmerged(36295)]

- narrowminded/innovative
This slider could need some tweaking as well. When narrowminded, there provinces with your state religion should be even more loyal 8eg. give more negative RR than usually) and perhaps even give a minor tax boost (like 5% or so). Also, therecould be a small bonus to converting when full narrowminded. Being fully innovative should still be superior though, and this is the way: remove/reduce the negative impact on having non-state cultures and religions. And then add more of the events that push you to narrowminded, to make it a bit more difficult to go there. Tech bonus for being innovative could be slightly tweaked down once more.

Thoughts?

I think this slider is pretty good atm. The Province increased loyality is done by the slowed down WE. I don´t see the slightest reason for a tax-boost here. Come on being narrowminded gives you tax? Plundering minorities ?
The bonus on converting is given by the number of "converters" granted and by the added random events. If anything then I would propose an even more essential bonus on stabilitycosts for being narrowminded here.

Agree on the naval/land slider there on the manpower. With the new WE-rules it can be crushing for a naval nation to be in war. At least a bit more mp could come handy here. On the other hand, who except England/Port usually goes fully naval, and England is well protected by its fleet. While Port is somehow invisible and not being attacked often anyways.

On the merc/trade sliders i think those where changed for mp-reasons mostly. I think a lot of TA where pretty common.
The question is wether the imo targeted at goal to increase likelyhood to go to war over trade has been reached. I think not. Trade embargoes are restricted by the too fast dying of the cots because of lack of competition anyways nowadays. So overall those penelties are indeed a little hard as they are now.

 

[arcorelli]

I personally think that it's time we look at the sliders, of which some could use a bit of improvement. Here's my thoughts:

- naval/land
This slider shouldn't affect manpower at all, and should have a less impact on morale. It could affect support limit, though. And it could affect price on artillery as well, as it does with inf, cav, warships, galleys and transports. Finally, it could give a slight tax boost for provinces with land connection to capital for land powers (to balance the impressive bonus naval nations get to overseas tax income).

Agreed. Manpower should not be affected by this slider: bad for MP (and in general, naval nations got smaller armies because their populations were lower, not by special problems in organizing their manpower)

- free trade/mercantilism
This slider needs some tweaking to make free trade more benefitial.

Actually, what is the disadvantage of free trade? More expensive traders? But if you are a heavy trader, you usually don't get probems with money anyway. And the bonus in number of traders can be quite handy for getting 12 yearly (specially since it not depends in stability or be able to get a monopoly).

And unsure about inno-narrow.

 

[Adam B.]

Reform The Sliders ! Reform The Sliders ! Reform The Sliders !


yes ... plz, good ideas.

 

[Hive]

I think this slider is pretty good atm. The Province increased loyality is done by the slowed down WE. I don´t see the slightest reason for a tax-boost here. Come on being narrowminded gives you tax? Plundering minorities ?

Well it's not like the DP sliders are all too realistic in the first place, is it? In terms of balancing the slider, it makes perfect sense. At least to me.

The bonus on converting is given by the number of "converters" granted and by the added random events. If anything then I would propose an even more essential bonus on stabilitycosts for being narrowminded here.

Well having loads of missionaries available is no good if they have too low success chance... and I think it's only 1 extra random event they can possibly get at full narrowminded, not really a big deal.

Agree on the naval/land slider there on the manpower. With the new WE-rules it can be crushing for a naval nation to be in war. At least a bit more mp could come handy here. On the other hand, who except England/Port usually goes fully naval, and England is well protected by its fleet. While Port is somehow invisible and not being attacked often anyways.

Only England and Portugal? Uhm no... what about Netherlands, Venice and Denmark? And sometimes Spain and Sweden? Lots of nations often go full naval... but at least we can agree that they shouldn't get a MP hit for it.

On the merc/trade sliders i think those where changed for mp-reasons mostly. I think a lot of TA where pretty common.
The question is wether the imo targeted at goal to increase likelyhood to go to war over trade has been reached. I think not. Trade embargoes are restricted by the too fast dying of the cots because of lack of competition anyways nowadays. So overall those penelties are indeed a little hard as they are now.

Before, too many people used TAs. Now, no-one does. What I like to find is a middle way... sure, the TE penalty for TAs was brought down in the latest beta - but I don't really think it's enough.

Oh, and I forgot a part of my thoughts on the naval/land slider: Make building ships use manpower! Sure, you don't build ships of men; you use wood. But someone have to man those ships... so I propose that building 1 warship require 10 MP, just like with artillery.

 

[Hive]

Actually, what is the disadvantage of free trade? More expensive traders? But if you are a heavy trader, you usually don't get probems with money anyway. And the bonus in number of traders can be quite handy for getting 12 yearly (specially since it not depends in stability or be able to get a monopoly).

Free trade makes the merchants more expensive and makes you unable to use embargos as a weapon. The extra merchants you get doesn't really matter, as you can easily get just as many being full merchantile as long as you have a few monopolies...

 

[Slargos]

Good ideas, and changes I've pondered before aswell which only goes to show sometimes even danes can have ideas rivaling the greatness of Swedes.

I think any rebalancing of sliders is opening a can of worms that we don't need. I'm patiently waiting for EU3.

Some people notice good ideas when they see them, and thus sometimes people with good ideas get listened to.

 

[King John]

Vive le Revolution!

 

[arcorelli]

Free trade makes the merchants more expensive and makes you unable to use embargos as a weapon. The extra merchants you get doesn't really matter, as you can easily get just as many being full merchantile as long as you have a few monopolies...

Who cares about how expensive merchants are when you are rich? The only moment when that kind of considerations are relevant is early game, but a lot of people don't trade heavily anyway at the beginning. I guess merc can be good for non-trading nations, but if you trade heavily cost of merchants is not that relevant.

About embargos, maybe, but I guess I don't thought of that, because I never embargo anyway.

The extra merchants that free-trade gives you are unconditional: You get them no matter what: you don't depend on having your few monopolies (that can be broken if you are in a streak of low stab anyway).

 

[Vricklund]

Oh, and I forgot a part of my thoughts on the naval/land slider: Make building ships use manpower! Sure, you don't build ships of men; you use wood. But someone have to man those ships... so I propose that building 1 warship require 10 MP, just like with artillery.

No. No. 1 warship for 1 MP, maybe. But 10 MP?

Building a strong fleet should be a monetary issue, not limited by manpower.

 

[hansmaa]

I personally think that it's time we look at the sliders, of which some could use a bit of improvement. Here's my thoughts:

You made me ponder about this one Hive. Good work!

- naval/land
This slider shouldn't affect manpower at all, and should have a less impact on morale. It could affect support limit, though. And it could affect price on artillery as well, as it does with inf, cav, warships, galleys and transports. Finally, it could give a slight tax boost for provinces with land connection to capital for land powers (to balance the impressive bonus naval nations get to overseas tax income).

Almost agree. It takes more men to form a regiment than it does to man a ship of the line, but a ship of the line would probably have more & larger guns than a regiment would (since a ship has fewer logistical problems).
Thus, going naval should take a small amount of manpower *and* hike the price of guns as well.
However, as this favours going land, going naval should give the troops a small logistical increase. After all, you can land supplies (food, gunpowder, cannonballs) where you like if you have control of the seas.

- free trade/mercantilism
This slider needs some tweaking to make free trade more benefitial. So just like mercantilism means more trade embargoes without getting a massive negative TE hit, how about free trade having the same effect on trade agreements? I propose that with full free trade, you can have 1 TA without penalty - and full free merc, you can have 1 embargo without penalty. And also, you could get only -1% TE for each TA at full trade (with a cap on 2 or 3), with the same going for embargos at full merc.

I think this should affect the manpowerbase! Why? Becuse free trade must mean that more people are traders or somehow have a connection to trade (producers of goods and so on). If so, would it not seem reasonable that there are fewer people to rise for the army/navy?
However..... a trader-nation should have a easier time recruting mercenaries, eh? Because all the merc's know this nation has a lot of cash, they being famous traders and so on...

- narrowminded/innovative
This slider could need some tweaking as well. When narrowminded, there provinces with your state religion should be even more loyal 8eg. give more negative RR than usually) and perhaps even give a minor tax boost (like 5% or so). Also, therecould be a small bonus to converting when full narrowminded. Being fully innovative should still be superior though, and this is the way: remove/reduce the negative impact on having non-state cultures and religions. And then add more of the events that push you to narrowminded, to make it a bit more difficult to go there. Tech bonus for being innovative could be slightly tweaked down once more.

Thoughts?

I think a innovative society would have a fair lot of it's population studying or teaching... philosophing if nothing else.... no time to fight then, is it?
So innovative should lower manpowerbase. Having superiour weapons often means that you don't need to have as many men fighting... It won't mean you win every fight though. But perheaps it should increase the chance of randomly getting a above-average leader???? He comes from a country that knows how to think about things if nothing else.

 

[Hive]

@hansmaa
I don't like that you want even more sliders to affect manpower... in fact, I'd prefer if only quantity/quality did.

 

[feanor73]

Vive le Revolution!

It's "Vive la révolution"

Good propositions, Hive.

 

[hansmaa]

@hansmaa
I don't like that you want even more sliders to affect manpower... in fact, I'd prefer if only quantity/quality did.

In mp games you can run out of manpower even if you are going total land++, as your naval & trader allies will fund you. I'm fine with that.
However, if you choose that path, you better be damn sure you *will* have rich allies, or you will end up with a lot of unused manpower, which equals a DP-slider setting that is far from optimized...

Same with the naval-traders. As long as they can *buy* themself reliable allies, they really don't need a high manpowerbase as their allies will do their fighting for them. And not against them. Because if their allies do, the naval-traders will have the games biggest purse and no friends. And if you have no friends and no manpower, you have a Domestic Policy problem....

I believe lowering manpower might increase the need for diplomacy in games. And thus influence the other DP-sliders that you didn't mention, like Aristocracy.