House Dulo (the Bulgars)

[Sleight of Hand]

Who's played as these guys before? They're in an interesting position, and I believe they start with some of the best tech provinces in the Muslim world.

I was just curious about their culture, though. I know ideally they should be actual Bulgars (though I won't go into that here) but is it better to represent them as Cumans, Pechenegs or (Sunni) Bulgarians in vanilla CK II? I noticed that if you follow the dynasty back far enough they become pagan, and at some point go from Cuman to Pecheneg. Is this accurate? Why the change, and what does it represent?

Just after general opinions really, as I generally dislike the Bulgars being Cuman but I also accept that making them Bulgarian culture would probably be wrong due to the anachronistic names they'd have.

I do hate them all looking like Arabs, though. Very strange to see.

Oh, and is it true that the Árpád dynasty descend from the Dulo? Are the two linked in-game?

 

[DLFebin]

Árpád is "cadet branch" of Dulo in-game, yes. Wiki has more info on it, if you want:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Árpád_dynasty

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Very interesting indeed, thanks for clarifying that.

When did the Pechenegs start settling in Eastern Europe, then? Were they the original Bulgarians, with the Bulgars being the branch who settled in the Steppes?

 

[Enravota]

I was just curious about their culture, though. I know ideally they should be actual Bulgars (though I won't go into that here) but is it better to represent them as Cumans, Pechenegs or (Sunni) Bulgarians in vanilla CK II? I noticed that if you follow the dynasty back far enough they become pagan, and at some point go from Cuman to Pecheneg. Is this accurate? Why the change, and what does it represent?

Inconsistency in the game files, I guess. Both the Cumans and Pechenegs appeared after both Dunabic and Vloga Bulgarias were founded. IIRC the two Dulo branches were not linked in the original release, so the Dunabic branch ended as Pecheneg with the Volga branch being represented as Cumans, since there is no (proto)Bulgar culture in game to represent them.

Just after general opinions really, as I generally dislike the Bulgars being Cuman but I also accept that making them Bulgarian culture would probably be wrong due to the anachronistic names they'd have.

Bulgarian would represent the Dunabic Bulgarians, with Slavic and Christian names (the vanilla names are very bad BTW) and being part of South Slavic culture group. They would need their own culture, with Cumans being the next best thing (a lot of Kipchak tribes moved into Volga Bulgaria in a way similar to the melting pot in the Balkan Bulgaria).

I do hate them all looking like Arabs, though. Very strange to see.

That is pretty much the issue with all the steppe peoples ATM.

Oh, and is it true that the Árpád dynasty descend from the Dulo? Are the two linked in-game?

Not in any verifiable way. I'm not aware of any serious claim that they are a cadet branch. There is a Hungarian king (dead in 1066) married into a cadet branch in vanilla that occasionally leads to the Árpád inheriting Bulgar .

 

[jordarkelf]

The Bulgars were at their height around 700AD. In the west (Bulgaria) they were Slavicized and became Christian, around the Volga they survived until the Mongols came.
In the steppe area (north of Black Sea) they were followed by the Khazars, who were displaced by the Pechenegs around 860AD.
The Pecheneg Khanate was displaced by the the Kipchak ('cuman') one from ~1000AD onwards.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Very interesting indeed, thanks for clarifying that.

When did the Pechenegs start settling in Eastern Europe, then? Were they the original Bulgarians, with the Bulgars being the branch who settled in the Steppes?

The Pechenegs, if I remember correctly, displaced the Khazars around a century before game start. At CKII's start timeframe, the Pechenegs themselves are being run over the Cumans (if you move the timeline up a few decades, you'll notice those Pechenegs being swalloed up by the Cumans).

 

[The_Blind_One]

The whole eurasian steppe is one big highway for nomadic tribes to travel along. However most of these sudden shifts in political control should not be interpreted as a total migration of these peoples. Often a federation, for example the hungarian khanate (800-900) would be defeated. When that happened, the defeated ruling hungarians could either accept domination of the new victors, or try to pursuade their fellow tribesmen to set up shop somewhere else. The tribesmen that move away and try to invade new lands will retain their old political names such as hungarians or bulgars while most of their old clan mates will be absorbed into the new victors clan federation and form new ethnicities. It is extremely rare for entire populations to move out and migrate to new areas. It is much easier to just accept a new ruler for the majority. However the old ruling class will find this hard to accept and/or face major reprecussions for staying, so migrating and invading a new land is the safest option for them.

 

[Enravota]

The whole eurasian steppe is one big highway for nomadic tribes to travel along. However most of these sudden shifts in political control should not be interpreted as a total migration of these peoples. Often a federation, for example the hungarian khanate (800-900) would be defeated. When that happened, the defeated ruling hungarians could either accept domination of the new victors, or try to pursuade their fellow tribesmen to set up shop somewhere else. The tribesmen that move away and try to invade new lands will retain their old political names such as hungarians or bulgars while most of their old clan mates will be absorbed into the new victors clan federation and form new ethnicities. It is extremely rare for entire populations to move out and migrate to new areas. It is much easier to just accept a new ruler for the majority. However the old ruling class will find this hard to accept and/or face major reprecussions for staying, so migrating and invading a new land is the safest option for them.

And how would nobles conquer new lands alone? This is not medieval societies with rigid classes, a clan is in essence a wider family with elders and other prominent members (shamans, descendants of prominent clan members etc.) calling the shots. In fact, we know which Bulgarian tribes left with which Dulo member when they migrated to their current destinations, including the tribe that stayed with the eldest brother after the Khazarians came.

 

[Divi]

And how would nobles conquer new lands alone? This is not medieval societies with rigid classes, a clan is in essence a wider family with elders and other prominent members (shamans, descendants of prominent clan members etc.) calling the shots. In fact, we know which Bulgarian tribes left with which Dulo member when they migrated to their current destinations, including the tribe that stayed with the eldest brother after the Khazarians came.

This sort of view is more or less popular among certain people who have no idea how haplotypes actually work and take for granted that they show everything there is to know about migrations and ethnic groups.

 

[Enravota]

This sort of view is more or less popular among certain people who have no idea how haplotypes actually work and take for granted that they show everything there is to know about migrations and ethnic groups.

There doesn't need to be an ethnic relation between the various clans (which is a fairly limited entity), in fact most tribal federations included various mix on ad hoc basis. If you believe that a fairly limited number of nobles would be able to militarily challenge and win states like Byzantium, the Frankish successor states or the first Bulgarian state you are free to do so.

 

[A_Dane]

(not sure if you're still interested in people who have played it, but anyways)
Had a rather long game going as them, it was extremely tough actually. You're stuck between Christians and Pagans on all sides, half your provinces (if not more), are pagan, including half your vassals, who hates your guts.

Had to restart a few times, simply because there was an initial civil war due to unlucky traits, this then led to me losing 3 provinces to the russians, who then gobbled up all the weak nations around me before I could recover. Which would then lead to me being assimilated into the Cuman Horde.

Finally got a game going where I wasn't torn about the civil war, and managed to slowly expand across the steppes, nipping away at the Cumans and Russians when they got into trouble.

Eventually I ruled all of the steppes.

Then came the mongols. I died.

The Dulo's and the Zirids are pretty much the only muslims i play now that i think about it

 

[Ritzzz]

In the light of the Dulo's proximity to the Golden Horde, would the following strategy work:

- stay as a duke, while gobbling up lands in Rus/Ruthenria and bits of Cumania while staying clear of where the Golden Horde normally lands. And make sure that you can form a king title at any time
- once the Golden Horde arrives and are done with their first war, swear fealty to them
- as their vassal, form your kingdom title so that you wont lose the ability to DOW on fellow Golden Horde vassals
- as all your fellow vassals start with lands that has the 25 yrs recently conquered + wrong culture + wrong religion penalty, whacking them will be easy as LOL.
- continue doing so till you own the vast majority of manpower in the Golden Horde, then declare independence once those doomstacks are dead

But alas, the key thing is, as a muslim duke, you can swear fealty to the Golden Horde right?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I may try playing as a Sunni Bulgarian ruler designed ruler of the Volga.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

I got them kind of far. Fealty to the Cumans, take land from under tham, form Volga Bulgaria, absorb the Russians. Not sure why I stopped playing them. Think something tedious was happening.

Can't say they were as interesting as my Ryazan > Volga Bulgaria game. But I did like being a Cuman vassal.