Hostages

[jpr123]

So I've read all the dev diaries and I'm really looking forward to the game, but I have a few questions regarding hostages.

When exactly do you give hostages? Just in exchange for peace and alliances? And is this a proper military alliance or just a non-agression pact?

Also what happens to these hostages? Do they spend the rest of their lives as prisoners doing nothing? Or can they get jobs in their new court? Are they ever returned to their families other than having a ninja rescue them? And if a ninja does rescue them I assume whatever agreements were made in return for exchanging hostages is cancelled?

I read that the most valuable family members are prioritised when sending a hostage, but if, as head of a clan, you send your firstborn son can he still be chosen as heir?

I realise thats alot of questions, but if anyone can help I'd be very grateful.

From what I've read it sounds to me as if when a hostage is given to another clan he may as well be dead. Your not likely to get him back, so why should you care if he's executed? The only penalty seems to be an extra hit to honour.

 

[Drakken]

Hostages were usually minors, they were in essence fosterlings with a blade on their neck if their parents attempted to do something not funny, but otherwise treated as kin. They were provided education, shelter, military training, and sometimes they would even have the privilege of being bestowed one of the kanji of their "welcoming" Lord when they took their adult name at the genpukku ceremony.

So don't think hostage as in the modern sense. Think fosterling taken in with the promise that the child's parents will behave while he is welcomed in. Both Lords had a responsability. The sender to respect the terms of the treaty, and the receiver to provide everything to the hostage so that he becomes a good Samurai. And oftencases, serious friendships were created between the hostages and the children of the receiving Lord that would carry on in adulthood. In a times when alliances would change back and forth within months, sending an hostage was seen as one of the best ways to guarantee that the signer really meant it this time.

They were sent back when becoming adults and able to fight. And with long-standing alliances, hostaging became more of a formality than anything.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

Yeah, even Tokugawa Ieyasu himself spent 6 years(9 to 15) as a hostage hosted by the Imagawa clan. One should remember that during the Sengoku Jidai era Japan was divided between some 200 warlords and each of them had at least 10.000 soldiers, mostly peasants at his command. The Ashikaga Shogunate and the Emperor had practically no power to stop civil wars between those powerful warlords. The result of this was the these warlords started to conspire with each other in order to improve their status.

As Drakken mentioned in that kind of environment it was a pretty serious message to tell that I am going to respect treaty between you and me and I am going to be your loyal vassal when I give my eldest son and my heir as a hostage. On the other hand, if you force someone to become your hostage by using ninjas and that fails then it means that you will lose a lot of honor.

Tokugawa Ieyasu´s enemy Ishida Mitsunari found that out when he tried to capture Hosokawa Gracia who was a Christian samurai woman and the wife of samurai lord Hosokawa Tadaoki. Ishida´s attempt failed and his targets firmly joined Tokugawa´s camp. That failure was probably one factor which ultimately contributed Ishida´s defeat at Sekigahara at that year.

 

[jpr123]

Oh ok, thanks. That makes more sense than what I had in mind. But after the hostage is released do you still get extra honour penalties for breaking the arrangement?

 

[Drakken]

Oh ok, thanks. That makes more sense than what I had in mind. But after the hostage is released do you still get extra honour penalties for breaking the arrangement?

You mean by ninja? Beats me.

But a Lord not releasing a hostage after adulthood would be pretty low indeed.

 

[Drakken]

Tokugawa Ieyasu´s enemy Ishida Mitsunari found that out when he tried to capture Hosokawa Gracia who was a Christian samurai woman and the wife of samurai lord Hosokawa Tadaoki. Ishida´s attempt failed and his targets firmly joined Tokugawa´s camp. That failure was probably one factor which ultimately contributed Ishida´s defeat at Sekigahara at that year.

The factor that contributed to Ishida's defeat was Ishida Mitsunari (a.k.a Mr. Donut on SA), i.e. his total lack of charisma in his personality and in feudal relationship intelligence. He was widely seen as a bean counter, a bureaucrat, and a snitch during the Imjin War, which alienated a LOT of samurai otherwise loyal to Hideyoshi. The whole hostage fiasco might have been totally unnecessary if Mitsunari had the personality to secure the loyalties of people loyal to the Toyotomi clan.

When you are not able to make sure the Shimazu and the Mori clan will actually use their forces in the battle, and not just stand there for the show refusing to fight for you in the biggest showdown of Japanese history, and win a battle in which you have the better position, high ground, and Ieyasu's army flanked, something's utterly wrong.

 

[soran]

The factor that contributed to Ishida's defeat was Ishida Mitsunari (a.k.a Mr. Donut on SA), i.e. his total lack of charisma in his personality and in feudal relationship intelligence. He was widely seen as a bean counter, a bureaucrat, and a snitch during the Imjin War, which alienated a LOT of samurai otherwise loyal to Hideyoshi. The whole hostage fiasco might have been totally unnecessary if Mitsunari had the personality to secure the loyalties of people loyal to the Toyotomi clan.

When you are not able to make sure the Shimazu and the Mori clan will actually use their forces in the battle, and not just stand there for the show refusing to fight for you in the biggest showdown of Japanese history, and win a battle in which you have the better position, high ground, and Ieyasu's army flanked, something's utterly wrong.

i think it's just his personality and actions that got all these bad things to happen to him. he's a tough nut to crack. i mean seriously, during the Korean wars, he falsly reported good generals being horrible and not doing their job to Toyotomi in Kyuuhu, why? for the love of god, WHY?

he's the jealous type i guess, or, extremely full of pride, not wanting his peers to go past him and leave him in the dust, the first time Toyotomi hired him, Ishida was more or less an accountant and supervisor, he was good with numbers, and his administrative accomplishments got him Hideyoshi's trust.

I wouldn't say he's a bad general, he did manage to pull the western army under his banner, that, in my books require some skill, SPECIALLY, since we all know what a jerk he is to others. he's just a bad character to deal with, he's the kind that would be horrible to you until you prove yourself to his 'standards' that you are worth his time.

my point is: it is his horrible personality that got people to favor Ieyasu over him, why? because he's famous for being a prick to his colleagues, and his acts of taking hostages to secure his allies' obedience didn't help, and surely not his assassination attempt on Ieyasu.

I think Ieyasu knew he needed Ishida as the symbol of the Toyotomi loyalists, why? because he has horrible connections within his own army, hence as you said, he couldn't get Shimazu or Mouri to act and help him. But if you ask me, Terumoto was indecisive as it is, he, on the "paper" was the Western army's leader, and what did he do? stay in his castle and leave things to Ishida and Kikkawa.