Horizon Signal Abuse... Oh No

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Ur-Quan Lord 13

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The Worm has always loved us.

View attachment 348066
I'll show mine later today. Wasn't intending to embrace the worm, but my build let me use it well...

But, curious why venerable over robust? You're missing out on 5% science (and anything else these pops happen to gather)... For 30 year lifespan?

Second time I've seen it in this thread. It was fertile the other time.
 
Last edited:

urogard

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I'll show mine later today. Wasn't intending to embrace the worm, but my build let me use it well...

But, curious why venerable over robust? You're missing out on 5% science (and anything else these pops happen to gather)... For 30 year lifespan?

Second time I've seen it in this thread. It was fertile the other time.
Robust is a lot more than 5%, since it's a bonus like pacifism, applied after all other bonuses.
Lategame it's close to 10+% bonus.
 

Defiler99

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But, curious why venerable over robust? You're missing out on 5% science (and anything else these pops happen to gather)... For 30 year lifespan?

RP, basically; I figured my main species wouldn't modify themselves to die earlier. Robust would be stronger, definitely.
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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Robust is a lot more than 5%, since it's a bonus like pacifism, applied after all other bonuses.
Lategame it's close to 10+% bonus.
Hmm, are you sure? Confirmed through game files, or math on the output numbers, or what?

Just would be surprising to me. Thought it was (pop bonuses + planet bonuses) * (empire bonuses), with governors fitting either with planet bonuses or multipying some more. Robust is clearly a pop bonus, so would be a completely special case.
 

urogard

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Jul 17, 2017
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Hmm, are you sure? Confirmed through game files, or math on the output numbers, or what?

Just would be surprising to me. Thought it was (pop bonuses + planet bonuses) * (empire bonuses), with governors fitting either with planet bonuses or multipying some more. Robust is clearly a pop bonus, so would be a completely special case.
Example 1:
eng-01-robust.png

Hypothesis 1: Robust being regular trait bonus
Pop bonuses = 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 20 + 5 = 80%
Multiplied by Special Bonuses = 5 + 20 = 25%
Giving us a total production bonus of = 1.80 x 1.25 = 2.25
With a base production of 8 Eng x 2.25 = 18 Eng [Screenshot says we produce 18.20 though]

Hypothesis 2: Robust counting as special bonus (like pacifism)
Pop bonuses = 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 20 = 75%
Multiplied by Planetary Bonus = 5+ 5 + 20 = 30%
Giving us a total production bonus of = 1.75 x 1.30 = 2.275
With a base production of 8 Eng x 2.275 = 18.2 Eng [Appears to match screenshot production]

The same applies to Gaia World 10% bonus production:
eng-02-gaia.png

It's a special bonus stacking with all other bonuses.

That's why Gaia World ascension perk is actually worth it, despite many people thinking otherwise. Because it multiplies all previous bonuses, just like pacifism/governor bonuses do.

And that's why Machine worlds perk sucks so much, because even though it gives +20%, it's a regular bonus like pop traits.
Once you hit +100% production bonus through traits, techs and civics, that +10% from gaia world allows you to produce more than +20% from machine worlds.

Simply converting machine worlds bonus from regular to special multiplier identical to gaia worlds, would be a badly needed buff for ME's and one that's completely justifiable.

PS: Pacifism tooltip is also flat out lying. It's not a 5% pop resource production bonus. It's a 5% production bonus on everything including stations.
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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Example 1:
View attachment 348149
Hypothesis 1: Robust being regular trait bonus
Pop bonuses = 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 20 + 5 = 80%
Multiplied by Special Bonuses = 5 + 20 = 25%
Giving us a total production bonus of = 1.80 x 1.25 = 2.25
With a base production of 8 Eng x 2.25 = 18 Eng [Screenshot says we produce 18.20 though]

Hypothesis 2: Robust counting as special bonus (like pacifism)
Pop bonuses = 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 20 = 75%
Multiplied by Planetary Bonus = 5+ 5 + 20 = 30%
Giving us a total production bonus of = 1.75 x 1.30 = 2.275
With a base production of 8 Eng x 2.275 = 18.2 Eng [Appears to match screenshot production]

The same applies to Gaia World 10% bonus production:
View attachment 348150
It's a special bonus stacking with all other bonuses.

That's why Gaia World ascension perk is actually worth it, despite many people thinking otherwise. Because it multiplies all previous bonuses, just like pacifism/governor bonuses do.

And that's why Machine worlds perk sucks so much, because even though it gives +20%, it's a regular bonus like pop traits.
Once you hit +100% production bonus through traits, techs and civics, that +10% from gaia world allows you to produce more than +20% from machine worlds.

Simply converting machine worlds bonus from regular to special multiplier identical to gaia worlds, would be a badly needed buff for ME's and one that's completely justifiable.

PS: Pacifism tooltip is also flat out lying. It's not a 5% pop resource production bonus. It's a 5% production bonus on everything including stations.
Anyway, empire bonuses now affect (or may have always affected, and only megastructures is new) space resources. Adding a display is definitely new (if you have +50%, 2 looks like 3, and mousing over in system view shows you your modifiers).

So, on the wiki it says "empire", can't check what it says in game right now. Would not be surprised at all if some refer to it as an empire bonus, and some as an empire-wide pop bonus... In fact, I'd be more surprised if they're all consistent :p
Capacity overload, prod targets/omnifarious and, most impressively, instrument of desire covenant, all do the same. As well as the +5% energy prosperity tradition.

As for your math... Hmm... I agree. I don't see any other reasonable way to split those bonuses into a group of 75% and 30%, and that's the only way the math works.

Additionally, while I'd expected indenting and headers to mean something, like for intellectual, I'd also expect order to mean something, and "robust" is definitely conspicuously apart from all the other trait bonuses.

Well, anyway, when I get home I'll look in the game files real quick.

--------- long tangent incoming --------

That's silly about Gaia and machine worlds, but, if intentional, it does have one big impact. Driven assimilators. Before, once you had machine worlds, the only use for cyborgs was on habitats and ringworlds, where they got +30% to energy/minerals while robots would only get a pathetic +20% (and robots stuck to machine worlds where they had +45% everything). Another guy brought up that, with 2.0s nerfs andnchanges, while the machine pops get their reduced +35% to everything on machine worlds, cyborgs would get +40% energy/minerals, or +50% minerals if you found a species you could mod to indistrious/very strong. Which doesn't seem worth it.

If it's multiplicative vs machine world additive, and both those are intentional, then it could be. Of course, the new ME production tech doesn't apply to cyborgs, and if that's intentional, it's back to not being worth it. But, if it ends up applying to both... Making worlds with heavy mineral deposits into Gaia worlds, and then making the rest into research heavy machine worlds, sounds fun :)

Edit: but, in my experience, ME robots would have a reaaaal tough time reaching 100% additive bonuses without the +20% from machine worlds. The edicts affect space resources, so are empire bonuses, so I imagine they're in second multiplied group, and any addition to that group makes the first group stronger. Like, even in your example, you have pacifist and governor (and robust apparently) for +35%, and 70% pop bonuses. That means the 10% from Gaia world is +17% of base. But a 20% tile bonus (obviously not fromachine world) would be +27% of base.
 
Last edited:

urogard

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So, on the wiki it says "empire", can't check what it says in game right now. Would not be surprised at all if some refer to it as an empire bonus, and some as an empire-wide pop bonus... In fact, I'd be more surprised if they're all consistent :p
Ingame pacifism ethos states it explicitly as "pop resource production bonus".
Unlike e.g. Mining Guilds Civic stating "Empire mineral production bonus"
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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Ingame pacifism ethos states it explicitly as "pop resource production bonus".
Unlike e.g. Mining Guilds Civic stating "Empire mineral production bonus"
Alright. Edited in a little extra, about how machine worlds are probably always stronger. Can't check on whether edicts multipy though, right now. Of course, if we have both "round 1" and "round 2" bonuses from pop traits, it could very well be that empire bonuses can also fit in "round 1".

(I stopped calling them add and multiply, since both groups add to themselves, then multiple with each other.)
 

urogard

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If it's multiplicative vs machine world additive, and both those are intentional, then it could be. Of course, the new ME production tech doesn't apply to cyborgs, and if that's intentional, it's back to not being worth it. But, if it ends up applying to both... Making worlds with heavy mineral deposits into Gaia worlds, and then making the rest into research heavy machine worlds, sounds fun :)

Edit: but, in my experience, ME robots would have a reaaaal tough time reaching 100% additive bonuses without the +20% from machine worlds. The edicts affect space resources, so are empire bonuses, so I imagine they're in second multiplied group, and any addition to that group makes the first group stronger. Like, even in your example, you have pacifist and governor (and robust apparently) for +35%, and 70% pop bonuses. That means the 10% from Gaia world is +17% of base. But a 20% tile bonus (obviously not fromachine world) would be +27% of base.
For science Yields, it's impossible to get a 100% bonus, so machine worlds 20% will always be more powerful than multiplicative 10% from Gaia.
But for Energy/EC, considering repeatables, it shouldn't be so difficult to hit 100% with using repeatable techs, even for ME's.
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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For science Yields, it's impossible to get a 100% bonus, so machine worlds 20% will always be more powerful than multiplicative 10% from Gaia.
But for Energy/EC, considering repeatables, it shouldn't be so difficult to hit 100% with using repeatable techs, even for ME's.
Ah, of course, repeatables will get there eventually.

But yah, keep in mind that every group 2 bonus moves things the other direction. Having just a +20% governor bonus meams the +20% from machine world is +24% of base yield. Which means you need +140% of group 1 bonuses, minimum, to make Gaia world better. If edicts are group 1, definitely doable. If edicts are group 2, then its impossible for Gaia to ever match while they're running, you'd need 180% or more.
 

Buddlschlumpf

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With horizon signal abuse:

Happiness: +20%
Intelligent: +10%
Logic engines: + 10%
Synth: +20%
Natural XXX: +15%
Governor: + 20%
Academic Privilege: +10%

and there you are already above +100% for Science for Synths. And that should not even be the max bonus achievable.
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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With horizon signal abuse:

Happiness: +20%
Intelligent: +10%
Logic engines: + 10%
Synth: +20%
Natural XXX: +15%
Governor: + 20%
Academic Privilege: +10%

and there you are already above +100% for Science for Synths. And that should not even be the max bonus achievable.
Yah. Synths can't build machine worlds, so who cares? They can use them if they capture them, but if anything it's a good thing if Gaia worlds are better for them.

Also, the +20% for governor doesn't count. It actually increases the other bonuses you need, based on uro's math. It's not (a+b+c)*d*e, it's (a+b+c)*(d+e). The more you have in the first group, the stronger the second is. The more you have in the second, the stronger the first is. Gaia world and governor are together in the 2nd, so governor makes machine world (in group 1) stronger, so Gaia world needs a bigger bonus to match it. When uro said you need just 100%, he was wrong. With level 10 governor, you'd need your modifiers to hit 140%, not including the governor bonus itself, to make Gaia world better. And we don't even know which side academic privilege lands on :p

This was a tangent, from uro bringing up Gaia worlds multiplying, and me bringing up DA. ME, who can actually build both, don't get the +20% for synths or the +20% happiness or +10% academic privilege, and, back on topic of horizon signal, can't do it at all, so will also miss the +25% there :p
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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So, finally got around to finishing this game, and posting it:
2018_04_05_1.png
1. The way I made them specialized so much, without bio ascension, was, as you can see, starting with only the negative traits. I didn't need deviant, in the end, but that's because I wasn't planning on meeting the horizon signal; the slaves were gonna look how they look here, but I had some other plans for the other types which I don't recall.

2. The reason I have 3 different portraits: The old portrait is obvious, you can apply any existing template to any existing pop even if it removes traits, just can't actually modify a template in that way. As for the other, horizon signal caused a bug. When it updates your pops, it goes through a few steps, adding each trait one by one, so actually generates a number of new species for each modification. Apparently, looking through the save game, it left all my leaders 1 iteration behind, for some reason. Which meant none of them (including my imperial rulers) could ever be gene modded ever again, since they didn't belong to any pops I actually had. I fixed that in the save file (basically added +1 to all their species indexes) and decided... while I was in there, may as well make my scientists not look like blorg, and more importantly make them distinguishable from the citizens :p

3. I was a psionic materialist with a covenant with the instrument of desire, which means my slaves/citizens were slightly better at minerals/energy than bio ascended/synth pops respectively, along with the pretty damn good scientists. And the occasional +20% research boons, on top of academic privilege, research grants etc.

4. I actually first made a Jibru life-seeded barbaric despoiler race, which I haven't played since barbaric despoilers suck. But, their traits ended up, by chance, being almost the same as the Jibru Warrior here (decadent instead of resilient, and not psionic yet obviously), and they're spiritualist/militarist/authoritarian. Which is exactly what you'd expect from rebels of a materialist/pacifist/authoritarian Jibru Foundation with the worm and the shroud influencing them!
 

deckhand

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When given choice to change just home planet or whole species, does the choice have any impact on subsequent event chain?
I've changed my whole species; but wondering if just home system would be better?
 

Ur-Quan Lord 13

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When given choice to change just home planet or whole species, does the choice have any impact on subsequent event chain?
I've changed my whole species; but wondering if just home system would be better?
It seems, if you're pacifist and change only your homeworld, you get resilient instead of intelligent. All other options give intelligent.