Because we went through this before.
The Timurids held persian culture since the very beginning of Timur's reign.
source
HORDE is not even a culture. Even in EU4 terms, it is a government, not a culture. By the way, in the above source you can also read on Timurid architecture.
I do. It is a bad mechanic both in realism and gameplay. Even the Native Americans reform mechanic would be preferable.
Your entire argument from the very beginning is 'HUR DUR HORDES STUPID STEPPE NOMADS'. When I called you out on this you vanished from the previous argument never to be heard again. You probably will not even post after this post, which is good, because the less I see of you on this forum, the better.
Yes.
source
i like how.... you said all those points quoting my entire post... and apparently manage to miss the last thing i said...
that they did not have drastic changes in administration during Baburs time, (and before) and the slow withdrawal /migration to india as the uzbeks gained momentum....
... the less you see on this forum of me, the better? i went to sleep int hat other threads time lapse.
i do not think hordes are "durr stepp stupid"
i do not think you understand what i think at all...
which is very a common occurance within this forum ...
i have never shied away from any points i make, because as of yet, the only "proving wrong" anyone has ever managed to do int his forum is "i dont have time to do this." "you dont matter" etc?
... i think you prejudge what it is i say before you finish reading it the majority of the time simply because we didnt agree on things in the past...
meanwhile, i don't even remember who you are, until you bring up the situation which was relevant.
Did you notice the part where i said "2. you realize that they adopted persian and then indian culture, societal caste, and everything that comes with it when they formed the mughal empire...? ._. " didn't say "overnight"? and later went on to say it was long before babur, who you went on to cite as the source for the fact that they went through a government reform, (and i was saying i couldnt cite that they did it over night... -_-)
so... i don't know , misunderstood? predisposed to bias against what i have to say due to past encounter?
bit of both...
no. You are just taking as much chance as you can to be rude simply because someone doesn't agree with you.. no matter the reason, this is not ok. :|
and...
I won't speak for others, but I'm not picking on you at least. You argument is common and as of yet has never managed the citation I requested, because history doesn't show a clear break point for this "reform" that happened involving a large instability or even a significant economic restructuring over a short period of time. In each case, the nation conquered into territory and then gradually assimilated the culture of that territory into its own practices.
Arguing this requirement is needed from a gameplay basis is to show that nations were consistently outperforming history, or that they were too strong in MP. Instead, in patches before the reform requirement we saw Mughals only rarely, and almost never Qing. Not a single player has ever posted a game progression where Aq Qoyunlu conquered Timurids then gave way to Persia...even QQ doing that is rare.
The answer is that most horde nations of this time period had substantially sedentary populations with major cities. How was a horde government materially different from some of the European monarchies? Europe had wars from succession crises and issues with "autonomy" in this timeframe too...some worse than the hordes depending on which horde you look at. As a result, there's no justification for this "gameplay mechanic", as it constitutes a biased, ahistorical representation that nerfs nations that were already ahistorically weak before implemented. Then they poured it on with the autonomy.
A good player can easily play through that (in SP at least, or if good diplo maybe MP if the game even allows them), but good players can turn Kochin into a Pan-Asian global power too. That's not a sound basis for nerfing the hell out of nations that have taken gobs of nerfs in every patch...when they were never THAT good in the first place.
yes... my point exactly was that it can't be cited as a moment in time where they flopped over and said "k we are not horde no more, guys. change the plausible infantry/cavalry ratios! change our countries name! lets abandon most of northern persia!"
and then, uniquely ironic to this situation....
the person trying to say i'm wrong.... who allegedly agreed with you...
TRIES TO CITE SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED OVER MORE THAN 3 GENERATIONS as the event in question, hoping to prove me... somehow... wrong... in.. .agreeing... that... it wasnt .... an over night... event???!?!?!!?!??
and no reaction to that whatsoever? not biased >_> hrmmmmmm. i dont knooow, but according to my gut, it's hard to tell whos what when the cookies are shaped like carrots and the carrots have chocolate chips in them.
now onto further about my actual opinions, please do care to try and interpret them for what they are... (novacat lookingat you)
i dont know too much about the mechanics use in the game....
the only reason i think it is realistically necessary is to get rid of the horde succession style in favour of a better one.
that is the only gameplay application i can remotely attribute to why a reform could be necessary.
but why it is realistic? because of the idea that the government form did change. yes over time... do you want to make it like westernization? have it prestarted even for most hordes? i dont care...
but saying that you should remove it entirely...
welll what do you put in place that solidifies the successsion stuffffff
because having 100% legitimacy and then a heir with a weak claim ....
uncool.
for frankly, i dont get why thats a mechanic at all.... but thats the only thing i can say is a good and rational reason to add reform. (reform in THIS FORM? i don't know. not my place to say. but its histories place to say that there was reform or at LEAST reverse assimilation of conquerers into the conquered culture)
and hordes westernizing is a whole other separate beast, that should be tackled with ALL westernization, which my ONLY point in the OTHER thread, which you two so fervently ignored there as well...
