Hordes and Russia

[toroltao]

Oh, yay, more Russian nationalists, just what the forum needs.

PI attracts all sorts of nationalists, Eurocentrists, Sinophiles, and other sorts of patriots.

PI themselves are Swedish nationalist patriots and it shows in their games.

 

[Kalderus]

PI themselves are Swedish nationalist patriots and it shows in their games.

AI Sweden in 1.7 used to have 128% discipline under many circumstances. I learned the hard way never to engage them without 4:1 numerical superiority, especially when river crossing into a forest. Ouch that Swedish steel hurts!

 

[nicechinos]

Oh, yay, more Russian nationalists, just what the forum needs.

Do you mean Russian patriots?

 

[DevastatingTech]

I couldn't beat 9 provinces Sweden with 100+ provinces Lithuania, 10:1 manpower 10:1 army but their armies screwed mines. Sweden stronk.

Also, Russian nationalists are best after Ukrainians.

 

[nicechinos]

I couldn't beat 9 provinces Sweden with 100+ provinces Lithuania, 10:1 manpower 10:1 army but their armies screwed mines. Sweden stronk.

Also, Russian nationalists are best after Ukrainians.

Did you use policies? What was your mil tradition? What were your ideas? Lithuania has quality NI while Russia doesn't and it's always manageable to defeat Swedes with right idea groups and army composition. BTW they never have enough manpower to compete.

 

[Novacat]

AI Sweden in 1.7 used to have 128% discipline under many circumstances. I learned the hard way never to engage them without 4:1 numerical superiority, especially when river crossing into a forest. Ouch that Swedish steel hurts!

Sweden used to have the highest discipline of any country in the game, due to a combination of their powerful NIs and permanent event modifiers (hello Gustav's military reforms)

The game treats hordes as if they were proper centralized states with established cultural presence in the areas they populate, with real cities and such

Many of them were.

Where did you get this? Read Joseph Goebbels propaganda?

One of the reasons why Russia has such a large population of Russians is that Russia tended to ethnically cleanse native lands. After all, changing the majority is easy if you kill off all the natives.

 

[WalrusDickenson]

I agree that EU3 horde mechanic gave a much better feel of what the Russian frontier was like.
«Austria leaking to Central Asia» occured not because the mechanic was bad, but because land colonization
in EU4 is too simple.

is that Russia tended to ethnically cleanse native lands

I don't think there's any real historical evidence to that. Perhaps only Circassian exodus (which happened outside EU timespan) is classified as such by certain interested parties, despite being quite an ordinary phenomenon for the shrinking sphere of influence of the Ottoman empire.
More like colonists of a centralized European empire outbred and absorbed scarcely populated areas, which is what always happens when nomads come in touch with settled farmers.

 

[nicechinos]

One of the reasons why Russia has such a large population of Russians is that Russia tended to ethnically cleanse native lands. After all, changing the majority is easy if you kill off all the natives.

You should have tons of evidence for that nonsense for sure. Care to provide? Except for expelling of Circassians.

 

[ekorovin]

I have a real problem believing that Pre XIX century Russia had any ability to ethnically cleanse it's lands, even if such a thought could cross pre XIX century mind. Russia had Tatar tsar, for God's sake.

 

[DevastatingTech]

Nomads/Hordes are not natives. What da fuck guys. Please go and learn some history of Turks/Mongols from BC400 to 19th century. You will see a lot glory.

Sorry I can't say more things. My English is not best.

 

[Novacat]

You should have tons of evidence for that nonsense for sure. Care to provide? Except for expelling of Circassians.

source

Then you hit the Soviet era and Stalin which brought those policies to pretty much every non-Russian culture in the USSR, with the Crimean Tartars getting the worst of it.

 

[toroltao]

I have a real problem believing that Pre XIX century Russia had any ability to ethnically cleanse it's lands, even if such a thought could cross pre XIX century mind. Russia had Tatar tsar, for God's sake.

Can we please not use Roman numerals now. This isn't Medieval era. You can just write 19 or 19th century. It's a lost faster and easier.

 

[Zak Preston]

The game treats hordes as if they were proper centralized states with established cultural presence in the areas they populate, with real cities and such, so it's impossible for Russia to do what it historically did: colonize these areas. In EU3, you could send colonists to horde provinces but for some reason it's not there in EU4. So as a result, you get a huge number of Tatar provinces as if they were the actual established population of those areas. In reality, only a few Horde provinces can be classified as such, like Crimea (Bakhchisaray), Astrakhan and possibly a few more.

Should there maybe be a workaround for that? Like, being able to found new cities in horde areas or something like that.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but have you been in Samara, Ul'yanovsk, Toliatty, Orenburg, Kazan or Yekaterinburg? Have you seen the majority of population: Chuvash, Tartars, Uzbeks? Sometimes they are pale-skinned, tall, blue-eyed and blonde, but still they are still Chuvash or Tartars, sometimes even Uzbek. Genetics is a weird thing, especially when you mix a lot of nations =))

Another point is that even now RF is still vastly underpopulated with huge uncolonized territories, for which Japan, China or Korea would gladly murder their beloved grandmas.

I'm talking about modern time with 142 000 000 population. What can you say about XV-XVIII centuries then?

 

[WalrusDickenson]

You can just write 19 or 19th century

Not hip 'nuff.

 

[WalrusDickenson]

Oh, it's this thread again. Has anyone posted haplogroups.jpg yet? It clearly illustrates how Russias were colonized.

 

[toroltao]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but have you been in Samara, Ul'yanovsk, Toliatty, Orenburg, Kazan or Yekaterinburg? Have you seen the majority of population: Chuvash, Tartars, Uzbeks? Sometimes they are pale-skinned, tall, blue-eyed and blonde, but still they are Chuvash or Tartars. Genetics is a weird thing, especially when you mix a lot of nations =))

The Chuvash and Uzbeks have been blonde and blue eyed for so long now that there's really no evidence that they weren't in the first place, and Tartar is so vague it could be used to describe any number of people from Mongolia to Ukraine and Central Asia.

Here's an old picture of a Beijing corner tower:



The text below it calls it a Tartar Tower.

 

[Red Khan]

Well, Kalmyks were special, they had symbiotic relationship with empire, acting as a shield against Nogai in return for right of passage through Russian lands. Though it's a shame that they aren't in-game.

Yes, a march in game's terms.

 

[WalrusDickenson]

Tartar is so vague

In the Russian Empire it meant «turkic nomads». Due to the lack of actual demographic impact nobody cared about flavours of the term until Soviet times.

 

[toroltao]

In the Russian Empire it meant «turkic nomads». Due to the lack of actual demographic impact nobody cared about flavours of the term until Soviet times.

"Turkic nomads" is super vague. Turks are still used to describe everything from Xinjiang to Ukraine, sometimes even used to describe Mongolian groups.

 

[Red Khan]

Turks are still used to describe everything from Xinjiang to Ukraine, sometimes even used to describe Mongolian groups.

Turkic people you mean. Turks and Turkic are different, just as German and Germanic or Russian and Slavic.

In the Russian Empire it meant «turkic nomads». Due to the lack of actual demographic impact nobody cared about flavours of the term until Soviet times.

They didn't care themselves actually. Not in terms of nationality/ethnicity at least.