Hordes and Russia

[herrmarisa]

The game treats hordes as if they were proper centralized states with established cultural presence in the areas they populate, with real cities and such, so it's impossible for Russia to do what it historically did: colonize these areas. In EU3, you could send colonists to horde provinces but for some reason it's not there in EU4. So as a result, you get a huge number of Tatar provinces as if they were the actual established population of those areas. In reality, only a few Horde provinces can be classified as such, like Crimea (Bakhchisaray), Astrakhan and possibly a few more.

Should there maybe be a workaround for that? Like, being able to found new cities in horde areas or something like that.

 

[oblio-]

You know, Russia "colonized" Moldavia and Lithuania, and those were never horde territories. So the colonial argument is kind of moot except for Siberia.
Plus, even today a large number of Russians are of Tatar (or other Asian) origins.

Colonization can happen even if the local population is not gone, and it would be kind of unfair to make those regions colonizable.

There is a solution in the game for what you're asking, it's called culture conversion.

 

[herrmarisa]

You know, Russia "colonized" Kiev and Moldavia, and those were never horde territories. So the colonial argument is kind of moot except for Siberia.
Plus, even today a large number of "Russians" are of Tatar (or other Asian) origins.

Russia colonized Moldavia and Ukraine? Wow, that's new. If you mean the ingame horde areas of South Ukraine, then it's the same as any other horde area.

Plus, even today a large number of "Russians" are of Tatar (or other Asian) origins.

Go away.

 

[oblio-]

Re-read my post. And yes, Russia colonized Moldavia, more precisely Bessarabia. "colonized" = brought colonists.

What you want is already in-game:
- culture conversion
- buildings to increase base tax and manpower

 

[Aleppo]

Plus, even today a large number of Russians are of Tatar (or other Asian) origins.

Where did you get this? Read Joseph Goebbels propaganda?

 

[itsuart]

The game treats hordes as if they were proper centralized states with established cultural presence in the areas they populate, with real cities and such

Seriously? Since when? Is new patch arrived?

 

[nicechinos]

Where did you get this? Read Joseph Goebbels propaganda?

LOl, made my day. Is that yellow-blue flag I'm smelling?

 

[oblio-]

Where did you get this? Read Joseph Goebbels propaganda?

The 2010 census recorded 81% of the population as ethnically Russian, and 19% as other ethnicities:[2] 3.7% Tatars; 1.4% Ukrainians; 1.1% Bashkirs; 1% Chuvashes; 11.8% others and unspecified. According to the Census, 84.93% of the Russian population belongs to European ethnic groups (Slavic, Germanic, Finnic other than Ugric, Greek, and others). This is a decline from the 2002, when they constituted for more than 86% of the population.[2]

100% - 84,93% = 15%.
Damn, Goebbels wrote on Wikipedia!

Instead of you I'd be proud of my Russian heritage, including the Asian part. That reply was kind of shameful...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Seriously? Since when? Is new patch arrived?

Maybe he's running a mod?

 

[herrmarisa]

Seriously? Since when? Is new patch arrived?

No, I mean that horde provinces have established cultures and base tax and such. When you conquer a horde province, the culture remains the same, meaning you have to spend lots of diplomatic mana to assimilate those Tatars. But these horde peoples had almost never settled in those lands.

 

[oblio-]

No, I mean that horde provinces have established cultures and base tax and such. When you conquer a horde province, the culture remains the same, meaning you have to spend lots of diplomatic mana to assimilate those Tatars. But these horde peoples had almost never settled in those lands.

Well, true, but the population is still there. It's not like they vanish into thin air

 

[nicechinos]

100% - 84,93% = 15%.
Damn, Goebbels wrote on Wikipedia!

Instead of you I'd be proud of my Russian heritage, including the Asian part. That reply was kind of shameful...

Ok, but it's not how your post reads. It should be population of Russia (not, Russians as it reads like Russian ethnicity). Your point proves that Russia should get substantial accepted culture threshold bonus.

 

[herrmarisa]

100% - 84,93% = 15%.
Damn, Goebbels wrote on Wikipedia!

Instead of you I'd be proud of my Russian heritage, including the Asian part. That reply was kind of shameful...

What you said was that Russians have Tatar or whatever Asian heritage, not that there are minor peoples in various Russian regions. Not to sound like one of those people screaming "FASCIST" at anyone who disagrees with them, but that's exactly what Goebbels tried to emphasize with his "Asiatic hordes" thing and depicting Russians as Mongoloids in propaganda posters.

I personally wouldn't care if we were indeed Asiatic, but the problem is that it's simply not true. Judging from my own appearance, I'm probably whiter than 80% of Europeans. But let's please stop this discussion because it's stupid.

 

[oblio-]

Ok, but it's not how your post reads. It should be population of Russia (not, Russians as it reads like Russian ethnicity). Your point proves that Russia should get substantial accepted culture threshold bonus.

I initially used "scare quotes" especially for that reason but I thought it would be misinterpreted. Doomed if you do, doomed if you don't!

About the culture acceptance idea, complain to Paradox, it should probably be a part of the national ideas...

But let's please stop this discussion because it's stupid.

Well, then reply to my other points.

1. You can't make people vanish i.e. making the territory colonizable is silly.
2. Giving events to mass-increase base tax/population is kind of overpowered.

What should really be done IMO, is my previous comment - Russia should get a culture acceptance idea.

 

[herrmarisa]

Well, true, but the population is still there. It's not like they vanish into thin air

Not really there, maybe riding around cities that Russians built but that doesn't represent the population of an area from the EU4's perspective.

 

[toroltao]

No, I mean that horde provinces have established cultures and base tax and such. When you conquer a horde province, the culture remains the same, meaning you have to spend lots of diplomatic mana to assimilate those Tatars. But these horde peoples had almost never settled in those lands.

How do you define settled? The Golden Horde had cities and the Manchu had agriculture - farming millet and grain, raising oxen, sheep, and horses, as well as fishing. Most of them weren't even nomadic by the time of the game's start. They were for the most part sedentary after the Mongol conquest.

There's even a quote by Nurhaci in which he compared his sedentary people to the nomadic Mongols:

"The languages of the Chinese and Koreans are different, but their clothing and way of life is the same. It is the same with us Manchus (Jušen) and Mongols. Our languages are different, but our clothing and way of life is the same." Later Nurhaci indicated that the bond with the Mongols was not based in any real shared culture, rather it was for pragmatic reasons of "mutual opportunism", when he said to the Mongols: "You Mongols raise livestock, eat meat and wear pelts. My people till the fields and live on grain. We two are not one country and we have different languages."

http://books.google.ca/books?id=hi2...v=onepage&q=Nurhaci mongol meat grain&f=false

At least they don't have Horde ideas.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Not really there, maybe riding around cities that Russians built but that doesn't represent the population of an area from the EU4's perspective.

you realize that crimean tatars were expelled en masse from crimea as late as soviet russia, right? to make way for stalin's favourite new resort town. a town my penpal lives in. this is not to say that there are no crimean tatars in crimea today... just a lot of them was pushed out.

and sakha people in sibir, still living there today... in cities. they didnt disapear or ride horses... but htey didnt make up majoirity of the powerbases either. it almost comparable to the reservation native american status of north america. a people and nation absorbed inmto a more advanced nation?

just a thought...

 

[MadDjinn]

I'm just wondering why this thread is even being allowed to stay open...

 

[Taterthomp2]

I'm just wondering why this thread is even being allowed to stay open...

due to what....?

 

[Red Khan]

Well, the first poster is right, the lands were colonized pretty much Wild West style, with zasechnaya cherta forts and stuff. The only exceptions were probably Kazan Khanate and Crimea where most of population were settled. But the problem is that game mechanics don't show migrations Vicky style, even the number of population is gone. IMHO the Divine Wind mechanics were better in this aspect than the current mechanics.