Horde unit limbo: Horde CNs

[Achanei]

Yet another strange quirk resulting of the oddity that is the non-upgrading horde units...while traditional hordes are able to switch with reform government, that decision seems to be tied to the horde government itself.

Now since CNs inherit tech group, but get their own government, horde CNs are eternally screwed because there is *no* way at all to get other units. therefore, the game is basically unplayable for a horde CN after the 1650 mark at best.

Due to the unfathomable circumstances that leave horde tech as only tech in the game without unit upgrades, even american tribes start punching you for fun and money at that point. Westernization is possible straight away, but being current in miltech only gets you so far against reformed tercios with four times as many pips.

To be fair, this is a relatively obscure scenario, but so is the decision to make horde units completely without upgrades - a design oddity that if chosen to keep that way also requires that all scenarios have a way to work around it. I am not asking to get foreign core recruitment back, but seriously, noticing that you are completely and utterly screwed 100y into a game is not fun, and this is not the only problem the horde unit exception has caused. why cling to a mechanic that is both unnecessary and takes gameplay opportunities away?

 

[Xinkc]

Apparently the design is for hordes to reform or die when poked with a stick late game. I remember Wiz saying something to that effect when people were complaining about horde nerfs around the 1.8 launch. Anyways, since that is apparently the design goal, I agree that the decision might be well-served to be tied to the tech group to help Horde colonial nations.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Apparently the design is for hordes to reform or die when poked with a stick late game. I remember Wiz saying something to that effect when people were complaining about horde nerfs around the 1.8 launch. Anyways, since that is apparently the design goal, I agree that the decision might be well-served to be tied to the tech group to help Horde colonial nations.

That doesn't really address OP's issue, which is being nomad tech but not horde government meaning that you can't get new units without forming a nation that does so. You can westernize and still wind up with a max of 6 pips and no way to get better units aside from forming Mughals, BYZ, Prussia or Persia.

I guess you could merge them into another tech group and alter the government tech cost penalty, but that creates complications of its own. It's far simpler just to give them their own units. With the LA floor they have and inability to access -LA governments without reforming, that should be incentive enough without also permanently gimping their units.

I remember Wiz saying something to that effect when people were complaining about horde nerfs around the 1.8 launch.

That statement had more holes shot through it than a piñata in front of a 12 gauge lol. There's no historic basis for *only* trashing horde unit progression, and now that they're sitting on permanent LA floor and no government ticking -LA, there's not a sound gameplay reason either. Most of the buggy problems with hordes like forming BYZ or CNs would go away by simply giving them their own units, something even the most backwards regions of the world get right now.

 

[Nunn45]

Would be fun if they gained access to ever improving cavalry armies, still keep them weak against the advances of Infantry improvements but at least able to fight with the right tactics.

 

[Achanei]

forming Mughals, BYZ, Prussia or Persia.

Wow, I did not think of that...yeah, that would actually work. too late to pull off in my game, but fair point nonetheless. I did not know that forming prussia and BYZ gives new units, but mughals would probably be the most realistic option anyways. heh, maybe i'll do this in another run just for the hell of it. The issue still stands, of course, but this sounds like a fun thing to do anyways.

 

[AurochsAway]

Yet another strange quirk resulting of the oddity that is the non-upgrading horde units...while traditional hordes are able to switch with reform government, that decision seems to be tied to the horde government itself.

Now since CNs inherit tech group, but get their own government, horde CNs are eternally screwed because there is *no* way at all to get other units. therefore, the game is basically unplayable for a horde CN after the 1650 mark at best.

Due to the unfathomable circumstances that leave horde tech as only tech in the game without unit upgrades, even american tribes start punching you for fun and money at that point. Westernization is possible straight away, but being current in miltech only gets you so far against reformed tercios with four times as many pips.

To be fair, this is a relatively obscure scenario, but so is the decision to make horde units completely without upgrades - a design oddity that if chosen to keep that way also requires that all scenarios have a way to work around it. I am not asking to get foreign core recruitment back, but seriously, noticing that you are completely and utterly screwed 100y into a game is not fun, and this is not the only problem the horde unit exception has caused. why cling to a mechanic that is both unnecessary and takes gameplay opportunities away?

This also means that playing as a Horde, or even a former horde, with CNs means you take all the micromanagement headaches normal CNs cause and multiply it by 2-3 times.

 

[balmung60]

You think horde CNs are bad? Form a CN as an unwesternized Andean tech nation. No units, whatsoever. All default Andean tech nations are manually set to use South American tech units and there are no Andean units.

The basic bug here is that CNs take the unit type associated with their tech group, instead of simply copying their overlord, or if their overlord is a horde, whatever they get if they reformed right then.

Oh, and forming Byzantium as a horde places you directly in horde unit limbo, even if you aren't a horde CN, as you get a new government, but no new units. Prussia won't work (no unit change there, either). Only Persia and Mughals can save you here.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wow, I did not think of that...yeah, that would actually work. too late to pull off in my game, but fair point nonetheless. I did not know that forming prussia and BYZ gives new units, but mughals would probably be the most realistic option anyways. heh, maybe i'll do this in another run just for the hell of it. The issue still stands, of course, but this sounds like a fun thing to do anyways.

Actually, I don't think BYZ gives you new units. Prussia might or might not. Persia, Mughals, and Qing will for sure though. BYZ gives you new ideas but not units IIRC, my bad on that.

Note that Manchu --> Qing is tag based, so you can't culture drift to do it, you have to start as one of the 3 that are capable.

This also means that playing as a Horde, or even a former horde, with CNs means you take all the micromanagement headaches normal CNs cause and multiply it by 2-3 times.

Their rebels are really easy to beat if you make them then reform though .

 

[balmung60]

Actually, I don't think BYZ gives you new units. Prussia might or might not. Persia, Mughals, and Qing will for sure though. BYZ gives you new ideas but not units IIRC, my bad on that.

Note that Manchu --> Qing is tag based, so you can't culture drift to do it, you have to start as one of the 3 that are capable.



Their rebels are really easy to beat if you make them then reform though .

Only Persia, Mughals, and Qing give new units (though Manchu is supposed to), but no CN can ever form Qing, as Manchu can only be formed by one of the three Jurchen tribes (restricted by tag instead of by culture) and Qing can only be formed by Manchu.

Byzantium and Prussia give you new ideas (and in Byzantium's case, a new government, which is the last thing you want when you have horde units, since then you can't reform into units that upgrade), but not new units.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Also, good catch on the Andean thing, I didn't realize that an Andean CN would literally have no units whatsoever. That's pretty foul lol.

 

[solidprice]

Simple fix:
Add a decision that Allow colonial nations that westernize to be able to switch to western European units.

need a reason to hand wave it/why?
Answer:because colonies make their own destiny, and/or open to change, and/or got training to break free from their backwards overlord,and/or they need to compete with other CN's.

Easy, buffs CN'S, has backwards overlords thinking twice, and makes everyone happy!

 

[Achanei]

so the workaround would be to form a CN, sell all the original land to it, then play as CN and grab the required cores to form mughals & culture shift if necessary. oirat could probably pull that off, or for added difficulty one of the smaller manchu hordes.
In my game, I started as yeren, but I fear a move ike that is too late now, without the early horde advantage a conquest spree in asia is unsustainable. I might do that in the future though, mughal america...

that no unit andean CNs is even weirder though - how does that actually work? they just cant build any units? and no mercs either?

 

[balmung60]

Also, if you're westernized (even westernized, horde unit Byzantium), your CN will have western units and if you're the Mughals, your CN will have Muslim units.

The CN generation system just blindly gives CNs whatever units their overlord's tech group says they should get.

Ideally, CNs would copy whatever unit type their overlord has, and if their overlord is a horde, reform their units at the same time as their overlord.

 

[Achanei]

Ideally, CNs would copy whatever unit type their overlord has, and if their overlord is a horde, reform their units at the same time as their overlord.

They'd also need to get the decision to reform government on their own, at least in case the overlord ceases to exist/they become independent (which is probable if you have a player tag switching to the CN)

 

[RobRoy3]

Simple fix:
Add a decision that Allow colonial nations that westernize to be able to switch to western European units.

Allowing ANY westernizing nation access to western European units would solve many problems. I never understood the decision to remove that. The partial westernization that currently exists isn't really satisfying, anyway.

Or just tie units directly to tech levels. The bizarre assertion that nation A, despite being just as technologically advanced as nation B, is genetically unable to field the units that are dependent on that tech level is just... offensive.

 

[balmung60]

They'd also need to get the decision to reform government on their own, at least in case the overlord ceases to exist/they become independent (which is probable if you have a player tag switching to the CN)

No guarantee that the overlord scope is done quite right, but this decision I made in like five minutes from the regular reform decision should allow any colonial nation with the horde tech group and an overlord in any other tech group or a former colonial nation that meets the same idea group requirements as a normal horde with horde tech to reform.

country_decisions = {

	horde_cn_reform = {
		major = yes
		potential = {
			technology_group = nomad_group
			OR = {
				is_colonial_nation = yes
				is_former_colonial_nation = yes
			}
		}
		allow = {
			OR = {
				AND = {
					is_subject = no
					OR = {
						full_idea_group = economic_ideas
						full_idea_group = innovativeness_ideas
						full_idea_group = administrative_ideas
					}
				}
				overlord = { not = { technology_group = nomad_group } }
			}
			adm_power = 200
			stability = 3
		}
		effect = {
			add_adm_power = -200
			add_stability = -5
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					NOT = { religion_group = eastern }
				}
				change_technology_group = muslim
				change_unit_type = muslim
			}
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					religion_group = eastern
				}
				change_technology_group = chinese
				change_unit_type = chinese
			}	
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}
	
}

 

[balmung60]

So, basically, instead of the current decision:

	steppe_horde_reform = {
		major = yes
		potential = {
			government = steppe_horde
			OR = {
				ai = no
				full_idea_group = economic_ideas
				full_idea_group = innovativeness_ideas
				full_idea_group = administrative_ideas
			}
		}
		allow = {
			adm_power = 200
			legitimacy = 90
			stability = 3
			OR = {
				full_idea_group = economic_ideas
				full_idea_group = innovativeness_ideas
				full_idea_group = administrative_ideas
			}
		}
		effect = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					NOT = { tag = TIM }
					NOT = { tag = MCH }
				}
				swap_free_idea_group = yes		#keep progress
			}
			add_adm_power = -200
			add_stability = -5
			change_government = despotic_monarchy
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					NOT = { religion_group = eastern }
				}
				change_technology_group = muslim
				change_unit_type = muslim
			}
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					religion_group = eastern
				}
				change_technology_group = chinese
				change_unit_type = chinese
			}			
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

You'd prefer the modified decision (changes in orange)

	steppe_horde_reform = {
		major = yes
		potential = {
			[COLOR="#FF8C00"]technology_group = nomad_group[/COLOR]
			OR = {
				ai = no
				full_idea_group = economic_ideas
				full_idea_group = innovativeness_ideas
				full_idea_group = administrative_ideas
			}
		}
		allow = {
			adm_power = 200
			legitimacy = 90
			stability = 3
			OR = {
				full_idea_group = economic_ideas
				full_idea_group = innovativeness_ideas
				full_idea_group = administrative_ideas
			}
		}
		effect = {
			if = {
				limit = {
					NOT = { tag = TIM }
					NOT = { tag = MCH }
				}
				swap_free_idea_group = yes		#keep progress
			}
			add_adm_power = -200
			add_stability = -5
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]			if = {
				limit = {
					government = steppe_horde
					}
				change_government = despotic_monarchy
			}[/COLOR]
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					NOT = { religion_group = eastern }
				}
				change_technology_group = muslim
				change_unit_type = muslim
			}
			if = {
				limit = {
					technology_group = nomad_group
					religion_group = eastern
				}
				change_technology_group = chinese
				change_unit_type = chinese
			}			
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

?

 

[AurochsAway]

You think horde CNs are bad? Form a CN as an unwesternized Andean tech nation. No units, whatsoever. All default Andean tech nations are manually set to use South American tech units and there are no Andean units.

The basic bug here is that CNs take the unit type associated with their tech group, instead of simply copying their overlord, or if their overlord is a horde, whatever they get if they reformed right then.

Oh, and forming Byzantium as a horde places you directly in horde unit limbo, even if you aren't a horde CN, as you get a new government, but no new units. Prussia won't work (no unit change there, either). Only Persia and Mughals can save you here.

Why are South American and Andean split into two tech groups anyway?

 

[Xinkc]

That doesn't really address OP's issue, which is being nomad tech but not horde government meaning that you can't get new units without forming a nation that does so. You can westernize and still wind up with a max of 6 pips and no way to get better units aside from forming Mughals, BYZ, Prussia or Persia.

I guess you could merge them into another tech group and alter the government tech cost penalty, but that creates complications of its own. It's far simpler just to give them their own units. With the LA floor they have and inability to access -LA governments without reforming, that should be incentive enough without also permanently gimping their units.



That statement had more holes shot through it than a piñata in front of a 12 gauge lol. There's no historic basis for *only* trashing horde unit progression, and now that they're sitting on permanent LA floor and no government ticking -LA, there's not a sound gameplay reason either. Most of the buggy problems with hordes like forming BYZ or CNs would go away by simply giving them their own units, something even the most backwards regions of the world get right now.

In my opinion, discussing why Paradox wants to follow their design decision is a matter of speculation. The "why" isn't the issue that should be discussed. The issue that should be discussed is what we can suggest the development team change, while keeping the apparently critical design criterion of "Hordes must reform or die" in mind, in order for Horde gameplay to be more satisfactory. If I missed a statement recently that says that "reform or die" is no longer the focus for future Horde gameplay, then I guess I'm wrong here.

Anyways, looking back at the OP after drinking a few cups of coffee has shown me why my response doesn't fit. My sleep deprived mind read the first statement as an implied suggestion to fix it. I stick by my statement, however, that having the reforming mechanic tied to the Nomad tech group might be an adequate fix. Maybe have the decision code posted above applied to the game but adding it to all nations in the Nomad tech group that might change governments without reforming.

However, I certainly don't agree with the criterion that "Hordes must reform or die." Let that be clear. However, I prefer to suggest solutions that stay within design criteria that seem to have a critical, must-have priority.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In my opinion, discussing why Paradox wants to follow their design decision is a matter of speculation. The "why" isn't the issue that should be discussed. The issue that should be discussed is what we can suggest the development team change, while keeping the apparently critical design criterion of "Hordes must reform or die" in mind, in order for Horde gameplay to be more satisfactory. If I missed a statement recently that says that "reform or die" is no longer the focus for future Horde gameplay, then I guess I'm wrong here.

Anyways, looking back at the OP after drinking a few cups of coffee has shown me why my response doesn't fit. My sleep deprived mind read the first statement as an implied suggestion to fix it. I stick by my statement, however, that having the reforming mechanic tied to the Nomad tech group might be an adequate fix. Maybe have the decision code posted above applied to the game but adding it to all nations in the Nomad tech group that might change governments without reforming.

However, I certainly don't agree with the criterion that "Hordes must reform or die." Let that be clear. However, I prefer to suggest solutions that stay within design criteria that seem to have a critical, must-have priority.

Sounds reasonable to me, and your suggestion would be a good alternative if they don't want to give units.

They should really assign units to the Andean group though. CNs with no possible units sounds painful.