Horde overland raiding system proposal & migration

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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The Problem:
Hordes are very unpleasant to play. You're either dirt poor because you raize your own provinces, or you have rapidly dropping horde unity and inferior stats because you have too much development. When playing a horde, all you can do is reform your government as fast as possible. Why can't it be fun to just stay a horde? I think that by allowing overland raiding and migration, being a horde can become fun.

The ability to raid provinces by land has been a long requested feature for hordes, and today, I am here to propose a system for its implementation:

Overland raiding:
Target:

- Must be at peace with the raider.
- Must not have a truce with the raider.
- Must neighbour raider by land.
- Must not have been raided (by the same raider) for at least ten years.
- Must not be an ally, subject or overlord of raider.
- Must be of a different religion.
- Raider gains -100 relations malus with target after raid.
- Target gains “Raided” Casus Belli on raider.
Raid:
- Initiated by diplomacy option “Declare Raid”.
- “Raid” lasts six months before being automatically called off.
- The raid is cancelled upon the raider going to war.
- A raid may one be declared once every ten years (per target).
Raiding Party:
- Must be a Horde.
- Utilizes “Raid Province” button in the unit menu (similar to "Raize Province" mechanic).
- Cannot bypass fortresses.
- Raider may be engaged/fought on the target’s home provinces.
- The target may NOT enter the raider's home provinces.
Provinces:
- Provinces give ducats and horde unity.
- May only be raided once every ten years.
- Gain devastation when raided.

The Effects:
- Hordes no longer have to choose between raizing their own provinces into poverty and plunging into uncontrollable instability by developing their provinces.
- This incentives fortifying your frontier and makes forts even more useful. A raid cannot be used to simply destroy a weaker nation's army because said army can always sit on a capital fort with impunity.
- Hordes will receive a nice buff, and will now pose a direct long term threat in the devastation they cause to their neighbours over a prolonged period of time. Hordes will be a legitimate concern for their neighbours and no longer just feeble, impoverished blob food.

The Facts:
- Slavery/Raiding was a prolific part of the economy of steppe nomads.
- The Crimean Khanate raided the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia, and Circassia for slaves very commonly, often taking in thousands of slaves in any given raid: ( https://books.google.com/books?id=DhnGDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=kazakh+slave+raids+russia&source=bl&ots=-ru1Omdo1W&sig=c9RSkKhKePFvW4XdgTO5dv2IbEg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirqMK5j9DTAhVKxYMKHRCtC40Q6AEISzAF#v=onepage&q=kazakh slave raids russia&f=false)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands).
- The Kazakh Khanate and other Central Asian states raided the Russian frontier and caravans and sold captives into slavery in the Uzbek Khanates, where the slave trade was a huge market:
(https://books.google.com/books?id=kWXSgG28y4IC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=kazakh+slave+raids+russia&source=bl&ots=ZeyHfHQ88_&sig=F2rDqej4BdZXcE7im0MN84N1iHY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirqMK5j9DTAhVKxYMKHRCtC40Q6AEITjAG#v=onepage&q=kazakh slave raids russia&f=false)
(https://books.google.com/books?id=Ti51WfA68RYC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=kazakh+slave+raids+russia&source=bl&ots=CPjSvcxIxR&sig=oUbekFomjclfxkrLu1LY1uzh3do&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirqMK5j9DTAhVKxYMKHRCtC40Q6AEIVjAI#v=onepage&q=kazakh slave raids russia&f=false).

Migration:
In addition to the introduction of an overland raiding system, I believe that migration should be granted to hordes as well.
- OPM hordes may migrate in the same manner as Siberian clan councils and native councils.
- This would allow defeated hordes to escape the grasp of their enemies by migrating away (if they border un-colonized provinces), thereby extending the longevity of their existence (and adding some flavor to the game).
- Just imagine the fun, you're a small horde hopping across Siberia raiding everyone left and right, maybe spending a few years raiding Russia and then migrating back East and raiding China, and jumping between the two constantly. A true horde experience! Mischief!

The Facts:
- Seasonal migration was a staple of the pastoral lifestyle of steppe nomads
- In EU4’s timeframe, hordes migrated over vast distances to establish their states in faraway lands.
- Example: In the 1500’s, upon the defeat of the Nogay Khanate in Central Asia/Western Kazakhstan, a divergent group of Nogays migrated all the way to the shores of the Black Sea in the Kuban, Ukraine and Southern Moldavia to establish their own semi-independent khanates under the patronage of their Crimean (and Ottoman) overlords: (https://books.google.com/books?id=i5-CAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=lesser+nogai+horde&source=bl&ots=BxQMd9V_Ur&sig=NNJrjjWX2vLey1onpVB3VV7n8SA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic7evW5q_LAhUil4MKHSApCuYQ6AEIPzAJ#v=onepage&q=lesser nogai horde&f=false)
(https://books.google.com/books?id=zMM7CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT43&lpg=PT43&dq=dobruja+horde&source=bl&ots=971d1-8xT-&sig=ZgtKpPDFJW4VdnAGhYTEnFdOIDc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYx42-56_LAhUhuYMKHaEhBrUQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&q=dobruja horde&f=false).
- Another example: In the 1600’s, upon the rise of Dzungaria in Western Mongolia, a fleeing group of Oirats reached the Western shores of the Caspian Sea around Astrakhan and established the independent Kalmyk Khanate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_Khanate).
 
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oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
163
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Good idea, if done to Ming it should also trigger an event which causes some mandate loss, which could be savaged via winning the war

I agree. Currently, hordes pose a threat to absolutely no one. They're poor, primitive, prone to revolt, and a complete pushover if you're roughly their size or larger. This way, the devastation they cause to your provinces will make them a real threat, and you'd have to be careful of raids whenever your army is fighting a war on the other side of the country.
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Muscovy already destroys the hordes every single game without exception. Constant raids from bordering hordes could serve to cripple Muscovy's provincial economy and buy the hordes some time before Muscovy garners the strength to invade. It could make the entire Central Asia more relevant and (at least in the early game) capable of holding their own (preferably if raiding provided horde unity in addition to ducats).

What happens in every game is that hordes don't go to war enough, so they don't raze enough provinces, so they run out of horde unity, so they get too many rebels, so they get invaded. Every time. Raiding for horde unity could stop this vicious cycle and make it so that AI hordes can actually function.

Constant raids could encourage weaker countries to seek tributary status in order to avoid being raided.
 
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oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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The main post has been updated. I have reworked the mechanics to make more sense in the scope of eu4's already-existing mechanics.
 

creativitypersonified

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Yes the hordes definetly need something to be going for them. Now you either A reform B collapse by rebels,or C just get annexed by states that should be inferior because you have no army because rebels. It's just sad.
 

cub298

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Either that or they could make it were every time you gain new land and raze provinces you get about the equivalent of halve a tech or something like that where if you are at war and keep winning, you could stay on par with Europe. Or just keep buffing this mechanic so that they can stay on same tech with Europe as long as they if never lose a war. Once that would occur it would make sense because the more loses the more questions of rulership happens in the horde making the government less effective from the loss and raiding.

It would still help but I personally don't know about what you said in main post of what it would mainly effect. What would it be CK2 raiding in EU4?
 
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oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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Either that or they could make it were every time you gain new land and raze provinces you get about the equivalent of halve a tech or something like that where if you are at war and keep winning, you could stay on par with Europe. Or just keep buffing this mechanic so that they can stay on same tech with Europe as long as they if never lose a war. Once that would occur it would make sense because the more loses the more questions of rulership happens in the horde making the government less effective from the loss and raiding.

It would still help but I personally don't know about what you said in main post of what it would mainly effect. What would it be CK2 raiding in EU4?

I've never played CK2, but if they implemented raiding in that game, I don't see why they can't do it in EU4.
 

cub298

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I've never played CK2, but if they implemented raiding in that game, I don't see why they can't do it in EU4.
Watch a section of a YouTube video of it with norse nation. It is really fun but would have to be a bit different for EU4 since it would have to give you money from the loot and got to get I say about 24 monarch points points per province.
 

TheXLivonian

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I wholeheartedly support this proposal, but also have another suggestion for migration, as hordes did not migrate across Siberia, but instead across Central Asia.

A new mechanic: Horde size. This indicates the amount of developement a horde can hold without incurring penalties. If a nation is under its Horde Size in developement, it incurs huge bonuses, to represent small but powerful hordes like the Aq qoyunlu. Hordes that hold more land than their horde size would incur horde unity penalties. Horde size will always drift towards current developement.

Many uncolonized provinces should be scattered throughout Central Asia. A horde should be able to abandon their provinces at will. They should also be able to spend monarch points to colonize neighboring uncolonized provinces that are not in the Siberia super region at roughly 25mp/development. They should also gain horde size doing this.

An example: as the Nogai, you have a horde size of roughly 125, so your rocking some manpower and force limit bonus. After raiding Kazan during their war with Muscovy, you decide to invade the collapsing timurids.
You take a huge chunk of land in the north, totally pushing yourself over your Horde size. You decide to abandon your unprosperous northern provinces, not only helping your horde size but also getting rid of your troublesome border with Muscovy. An independent Bashkiria takes the opertunity to escape the wrath of the Uzbek and make its migration west through your abandoned provinces, and gets a decently large horde size doing this. It thus invades the great horde during a civil war, and sets up its new power base there. After another war with the timurids, you give up all your steppe lands. Your horde now lives in Persia.
 

oim8

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Apr 21, 2016
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I wholeheartedly support this proposal, but also have another suggestion for migration, as hordes did not migrate across Siberia, but instead across Central Asia.

A new mechanic: Horde size. This indicates the amount of developement a horde can hold without incurring penalties. If a nation is under its Horde Size in developement, it incurs huge bonuses, to represent small but powerful hordes like the Aq qoyunlu. Hordes that hold more land than their horde size would incur horde unity penalties. Horde size will always drift towards current developement.

Many uncolonized provinces should be scattered throughout Central Asia. A horde should be able to abandon their provinces at will. They should also be able to spend monarch points to colonize neighboring uncolonized provinces that are not in the Siberia super region at roughly 25mp/development. They should also gain horde size doing this.

An example: as the Nogai, you have a horde size of roughly 125, so your rocking some manpower and force limit bonus. After raiding Kazan during their war with Muscovy, you decide to invade the collapsing timurids.
You take a huge chunk of land in the north, totally pushing yourself over your Horde size. You decide to abandon your unprosperous northern provinces, not only helping your horde size but also getting rid of your troublesome border with Muscovy. An independent Bashkiria takes the opertunity to escape the wrath of the Uzbek and make its migration west through your abandoned provinces, and gets a decently large horde size doing this. It thus invades the great horde during a civil war, and sets up its new power base there. After another war with the timurids, you give up all your steppe lands. Your horde now lives in Persia.
This. It would add a whole new and historically important dynamic to the nomadic nature of hordes, and given that the next patch appears to be military-themed, what more opportune a time than now to rework hordes? With the addition of many new provinces and nations in Anatolia/the Near East, at least now there's a chance one of the lesser nations could hold their own against the Ottomans, but in Russia/Central Asia, Muscovy just dominates every time, no exceptions.
 
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AirikrStrife

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I definitly think hordes should get better option to raid neighbouring countries, this was part of the economy and lifestyle of hordes to raid neighbours. Problem ofc being EUIV doing the westphalian model with strict borders (nt critizicing them for it) which doesn't correspond to the reality of horde lands and tribal areas.

Also a shoot out to my thread on the west african kingdoms which includes some thoughts on raid mechanics:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...some-thoughts-on-the-sennar-sultanate.976414/

And my old thread n interaction with ncolonized provinces, could be modified for raiding systems:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/uncolonized-province-interaction.898092/

@Semi-Lobster more food for hordes