Horde Improvement Suggestions Thread!

[Happy Chappy]

So, I've been reading the 'Why Nerf Hordes' thread and Wiz suggested a suggestions thread for how to improve hordes. So, thought I'd take it on myself to do it.

Please try and stay on topic with how this is potential improvements to hordes, and not pointing out the various nerfs and weaknesses, we have quite a lot of those threads.

So uh, I'll start. Maybe something like the EU3 system of needing other countries to colonise horde territory in order to annex it, so that they survive a little longer (like in actual history!) and/or the thing with hordes declaring war automatically, just to keep the Europeans on their toes for a while, though that one could backfire hideously.

Oh, and having some requirement to reform that ISN'T the 'fill out an idea group,' maybe having some high admin leader or something?

 

[cpm4001]

Copy-Pasting from the other thread:

Do people think that some sort of "horde advances" system, similar to that available for the NA natives with CoP, could be implemented? Give hordes a set of unlockable advances (advances giving bonuses, let me note...no maluses, please) that model transitioning their governments to more 'conventional' ones? Then, once the advances are all unlocked and a horde borders a non-nomad-tech nation, the government can be reformed (this probably should change the tech group and units, but I'm not sure how that would best be implemented. Anyone have suggestions?)
Also, I would definitely say that hordes should have halfway-decent units up through the mid-game, for those who might not want to/be able to reform the government.

 

[Holbenilord]

Sorry if any of these suggestions are irreconcilably bad.

1) Emphasise the importance of good leaders; we're doing this right now but perhaps we could make it even more important. Historically hordes did tend to fall apart on mere breezes after rising like... something.

Perhaps we could this by shortening truce timers, or reducing the warscore cost of province acquisition?

2) Alternatively, event troops. This isn't something that is currently felt to fit with EU4 but what if hordes actually gained small stacks while at a war with 0 war exhaustion?

3) An alternative to the mercenary pool- mercenaries could still be present but there could be another, called warbands or some such, which are recruited based on a different resource- mil points? I don't know

4) Buff prestige for hordes?

 

[Holbenilord]

Also, I think tributaries might be a neat addition. Many russian states might start as one. But, instead of just a gold transfer each month, we could have something a bit more complex; perhaps a horde gains 1 prestige and legitimacy per tributary per month? They can recruit mercs from tributary provinces?

 

[Happy Chappy]

Sorry if any of these suggestions are irreconcilably bad.

1) Emphasise the importance of good leaders; we're doing this right now but perhaps we could make it even more important. Historically hordes did tend to fall apart on mere breezes after rising like... something.

Perhaps we could this by shortening truce timers, or reducing the warscore cost of province acquisition?

2) Alternatively, event troops. This isn't something that is currently felt to fit with EU4 but what if hordes actually gained small stacks while at a war with 0 war exhaustion?

3) An alternative to the mercenary pool- mercenaries could still be present but there could be another, called warbands or some such, which are recruited based on a different resource- mil points? I don't know

4) Buff prestige for hordes?

Could you potentially combine these into the idea of having some Genghis Khan type leader who has a load of prestige bringing together various warbands BECAUSE of said prestige, like, being a big fancy famous khan is attracting more people to join the army or something?

 

[Holbenilord]

Could you potentially combine these into the idea of having some Genghis Khan type leader who has a load of prestige bringing together various warbands BECAUSE of said prestige, like, being a big fancy famous khan is attracting more people to join the army or something?

I think that would be awesome. From my knowledge what happened during Genghis' early years was something like a snowballing of prestige; more prestige united more tribes, created more determination, supplied more land and innovation; ergo more prestige...

 

[Happy Chappy]

I think that would be awesome. From my knowledge what happened during Genghis' early years was something like a snowballing of prestige; more prestige united more tribes, created more determination, supplied more land and innovation; ergo more prestige...

At the same time, this could probably be balanced with some pretty severe penalties for unprestigious, or illegitimate leaders. Sort of like the Tribal Succession Crises were in EU3 where they really were quite a pain to keep control of

 

[Holbenilord]

At the same time, this could probably be balanced with some pretty severe penalties for unprestigious, or illegitimate leaders. Sort of like the Tribal Succession Crises were in EU3 where they really were quite a pain to keep control of

I don't know if I'm misremembering but I vaguely remember playing eu3 and having hordes 1) gain ownership of provinces after occupying them for some time and 2) gaining cores via event very rapidly. Those were great buffs.

 

[oblio-]

This is were we are today:

Building units of other tech groups in foreign cores is gone in 1.8.

Do unreformed hordes get upgraded units?
Is the legitimacy requirement for reforming a horde gone?

No.

I don't like the idea, so here's my proposal:

All the units you recruit are mercenaries. If this is not enough, they are more expensive than normal.
This system would also apply to any other foreign-core recruitment policy such as Muslims recruiting Ottoman tech.

Thoughts?
Any proposal needs to have drawbacks for unreformed hordes, as well, so no overpowered suggestions please.
We want to have something Paradox would be willing to implement and feel it would be balanced.

 

[Holbenilord]

Thoughts?
Any proposal needs to have drawbacks for unreformed hordes, as well, so no overpowered suggestions please.
We want to have something Paradox would be willing to implement and feel it would be balanced.

Well my objection is that the mongols did originally have a strong, loyal core to their armies, exceptionally well organised and prepared, and performed exceedingly well under leadership. This is why I like the model with a professional centre and warbands filling up the rest. But, of course the mongols and the later hordes weren't all that similar.

There certainly were a lot of mercenaries and slave soldiers- I am mainly thinking about the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate here- and they did tend to co-opt existing military power structures etc, though.

 

[oblio-]

Well my objection is that the mongols did originally have a strong, loyal core to their armies, exceptionally well organised and prepared, and performed exceedingly well under leadership. This is why I like the model with a professional centre and warbands filling up the rest. But, of course the mongols and the later hordes weren't all that similar.

There certainly were a lot of mercenaries and slave soldiers- I am mainly thinking about the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate here- and they did tend to co-opt existing military power structures etc, though.

True, the Mongols did have a very good army, but they want to portray the downfall of hordes in later ages.
What spells "decadence" more than having an army mainly made out of mercenaries? Or with mercenaries at its core (think Rome/Byzantium).

 

[Darkath]

Let the unreformed hordes have a few additional units over time so they can still compete with contemporary non-horde units.

Unit levels would be more spaced out in the tech tree as time passes compared to non horde so that a non-reformed horde can still be somewhat competitive (given equal tech level) during the 1444-1600 period, but then start to stagnate with less and less new units that are less and less competitive.

 

[Holbenilord]

True, the Mongols did have a very good army, but they want to portray the downfall of hordes in later ages.
What spells "decadence" more than having an army mainly made out of mercenaries? Or with mercenaries at its core (think Rome/Byzantium).

Right now hordes don't tend to rake in the money but now that I think about it this could work very well with a tribute system. Of course there might need to be a few more nations bordering the hordes to make enough money... unless it was done on a provincial basis, deducting from tax and production?

Of course later on getting tributaries would be much harder, as the western nations blob, small ones get vassalised or taken into the shadow of larger ones, and the far eastern nations will eventually start feeling european pressure too.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

What I think:

I think that is ok, that horde have this kind of troops, but I think that one unit for all timeframe is too much, in my opinion is reasonable that the units of a nomad horde, receive some advancement from military knowledges in the rest of the world. So they should receive some little upgrade at some tech level, to be a little more competent, even if inferior to a more modern army. So they need to reform to expand and survive, if not they can resist a little more, and pillage the more little not-nomad neighbors.

The philosopy should be: More the time go on, more less they can expand and rule over great chunk of lands, but they however can be a threat, can resist more and can be a problem, more difficult to eradicate. So as horde you need to reform, but this not should mean that you can be devasted only becouse you are an horde, and also as horde some military upgrade should exist, like beetween three or five units to have a chance of fight, at least using numbers and territory\lands, every X level of technology.

 

[itsuart]

Just give them some units. For some flavor and to model adapting military ideas/formations/tactics from their neighbors:
* Mongolia, Oirat and Manchu will receive Chinese-like units (i.e. they peak and fall at the same time as Chinese do);
* Timmy, Uzbek (Kazakh) and Chagatai gets Indian-like units;
* AQ and QQ - muslim-like units;
* Crimea, Kazan and Golden Horde - eastern-like units.
Not sure about Nogai and Sibir.

 

[eon47]

Lower their manpower but drastically boost their unit strength to represent the fact that hordes fought with quality over quantity despite their name. Let their units progress so that they can remain dangerous as they did historically. Make Russia's appearance not the inevitable result of paper tiger horde armies, but of the different hordes being too fractured to effectively unite in the face of an outside enemy.

 

[birincikalite]

Revert horde nerfs in AoW before it goes live, except for Timurid idea nerf.

 

[nmcj1996]

Perhaps we could tie prestige to force limit i.e. at 100 prestige force limit has a 50% boost, and at 0 prestige or lower you get a -50%.

Also, instead of legitimacy perhaps you could have something like 'right to rule' which if low leads to pretenders, starts off at zero for each ruler, or perhaps 10% of the last one if of same dynasty, and increases when winning wars, at war, raiding, winning sieges and battles, and through peace deals, and decreases when at peace or when loosing battles, sieges, and wars. This could act as a modifier to revolt risk, maintenance, morale etc.

Another suggestion is to increase the amount of money you get from looting, and winning sieges, and lower maintenance at war. Perhaps also allow them to have automatic cores on any provinces they take from same culture, but at the same time lose cores on any provinces they lose to simulate people following their strength.

 

[Holbenilord]

More drunk idea spewing

1) Start with a very high army tradition? Up to the horde to keep this high, but a tendency to get great leaders at the game start might make things a bit more historical

2) Devote provinces to raising men- +1 forcelimits, but -25% defensiveness?

3) change production time? hordes didn't tend to recover too fast after major losses, so this could balance out a major buff

 

[Happy Chappy]

Oh, and a change that seems to be fairly simple. Re-tweak the rival system for hordes back to the way it used to be, these days hordes and rivals are a bit wonky. That should help keep the Timurids in check, if nothing else.