Hoping it's not as car-centric as the previous one

[ede457]

it wasn’t North America that really invented the car it was Europe Work to build the first car in the UK was started in 1892 by a 20-year-old gas fitter and plumber named Fredrick William Bremer. While still incomplete, his vehicle made its first run on a public highway in 1894. It was the first British motor car with four wheels and a petrol engine. The automobile was first invented and perfected in Germany and France in the late 1800s, though Americans quickly came to dominate the automotive industry in the first half of the twentieth century. people liked cars they could travel anywhere freely. They didn’t have to die on rails where fixated they could dodge something incoming with a car. People didn’t want to walk anymore on dysentery infected roads where horses crapped all over suffering from heat stroke or cold they could get there faster with a vehicle and not sweating with a bunch of people on a train or trolley with bad hygiene which know one cared or could afford. It was a very difficult life back then and your so called love for trains were the first to heavily pollute the world cars way later. This world now with microchips and longer distance to run trains cleaner wouldn’t be possible without cars and the wars sadly they both jumpstarted the world you see today, without them there would not be any computers no video games no high end planes, no sophisticated medical procedures or machines no bank accounts or credit cards nothing, all would start much later. Poor people wanted the luxury to drive too back then they didn’t want to be stuffed on a train they wanted freedom to go anywhere without people taking them along with everybody else. A nuke or solar flare will wipeout anything electric and computers and hard drive not connected or powered on but a car can work when fixing it back to the old days without computer chips , a electric train no you need electricity to make electricity. Basically you have to go back to polluting with charcoal diesel kinda a revolving cycle of history. Be thankful things like that were invented because you wouldn’t be in the modern world today But poorer conditions especially back then would be walking in harsh weather. Sewage on the road overflowing.

 

[Beer Fiend]

it wasn’t North America that really invented the car it was Europe Work to build the first car in the UK was started in 1892 by a 20-year-old gas fitter and plumber named Fredrick William Bremer. While still incomplete, his vehicle made its first run on a public highway in 1894. It was the first British motor car with four wheels and a petrol engine. The automobile was first invented and perfected in Germany and France in the late 1800s, though Americans quickly came to dominate the automotive industry in the first half of the twentieth century. people liked cars they could travel anywhere freely. They didn’t have to die on rails where fixated they could dodge something incoming with a car. People didn’t want to walk anymore on dysuntery roads where horses crapped all over suffering from heat stroke or cold they could get there faster with a vehicle and not sweating with a bunch of people on a train or trolley with bad hygiene which know one cared or could afford. It was a very difficult life back then and your so called love for trains were the first to heavily pollute the world cars way later. This world now with microchips and longer distance to run trains cleaner wouldn’t be possible without cars and the wars sadly they both jumpstarted the world you see today, without them there would not be any computers no video games no high end planes, no sophisticated medical procedures or machines no bank accounts or credit cards nothing, all would start much later. Poor people wanted the luxury to drive too back then they didn’t want to be stuffed on a train they wanted freedom to go anywhere without people taking them along with everybody else. A nuke or solar flare will wipeout anything electric and computers and hard drive not connected or powered on but a car can work when fixing it back to the old days without computer chips , a electric train no you need electricity to make electricity. Basically you have to go back to polluting with charcoal diesel kinda a revolving cycle of history. Be thankful things like that were invented because you wouldn’t be in the modern world today But poorer conditions especially back then would be walking in harsh weather. Sewage on the road overflowing.

Carl Benz, 1886...

 

[ede457]

Carl Benz, 1886...

yes 1886

 

[gustavotoniato]

I'm not even sure if this is true. Japanese and Dutch cities are way more pedestrian-friendly than those of comparative size in the USA. When I visited Viet Nam their cities were geared towards swarms of scooters and motorbikes. Other cities in turn can be dominated by bikes and rickshaws, or even people on foot. True, there are unfortunately lots of car-centric cities in the world, and lots of developing countries unfortunately take after the Western world (perhaps most of all the USA) in this regard, but I highly doubt it's some kind of 'global default setting' for a city.


This is what I'm talking about, though, and it's why I'm so concerned about the trailer, because it seems to echo exactly this misconception -- that cities are inevitably designed for cars first, with no consideration for pedestrian traffic, bikes, and public transportation.

Cities typically start out as (walkable) homesteads, villages, or trade posts, often connected to, for example, a harbour or railroad, a body of fresh water, or some natural resource. In the case of the cities before the 20th century, they then grew into people-friendly towns and eventually cities, with pedestrians, people on bikes, horse carriages, and street cars all sharing the public space that was the city streets.

Then the wealthy and influential automobile owners, and in the US' case, the car and oil companies, lobbied heavily to turn them into the polluted, noisy, car-centric spaces they are today, with literally no consideration for people on foot or dependent on other kinds of transport.

You've got it [donkey]-backwards if you imagine the car came first (or that old myth that American cities were built for the car) and that public transport, bicycles, and, you know, human beings walking about was an afterthoughth. It was the other way around -- cities developed from people-friendly public spaces which were torn down for highways and parking lots. As Jason Slaughter of Not Just Bikes points out in one of his videos, showing before-and-after photos of Houston's downtown, "this city wasn't built for the car, it was demolished for the car. It didn't have to be this way."

And yes, outside of car-centric North America there are definitely cities built around the world around public transport. Did you see the pictures from China of subway stations built in the wilderness? They were built to serve as connections between planned new cities and the existing public transit network. Again, there's no law of nature saying public transport and people can't be a consideration from day one. I'm 100% sure that if we Europeans were to found a new city somewhere, it, too, would have public transit services as a day-one feature.

Also, more expensive? Do you think massive freeways got their name because they don't cost anything to build or maintain? Do you think it's less expensive to build a car-centric city with wide highways than it is to build more sensible roads and pair them with bus services and rail networks?


Again, no, small settlements start out as walkable, by virtue of them being, well, small settlements. Whether they expand into walkable, people-friendly cities or car-centric concrete deserts depends on the vision of the city planners.


Nope, in fact that's the whole point of a trailer, to showcase the developers' vision for the game. They're never meant to be simply a bunch of features on parade. If it helps, imagine if it was the other way around, and the trailer showed only public transport services and people walking or riding bikes. The comments threads would be full of people declaring they would never buy the game because it didn't feature roads or cars.

You're also completely missing the point -- of course power plants, trains, and ambulances will be in the game. No one said otherwise, least of all me. I'm worried Cities Skylines will be as car-centric as the predecessor, for the reasons I stated.


No clue, then again I said explicitly in my OP that I was not talking about a total ban on cars, so I don't know why you're asking.


Sorry, but I don't agree that disagreement (with or without explanation) is a reason to delete a post. A red x is just that, a red x. It's not like you're receiving threats or hate mail, just that someone happens to disagree with you.

I really have Brazilian cities as a parameter. Many of them are not even covered by highways, they are connected by dirt roads, or single lanes. From my state São Paulo to the border is a very good road, it entered the neighboring state, Mato Grosso do Sul, all cities are connected by single lane roads, some very poorly paved, and they are all cities producing agricultural products.

That's why I always imagine a new modern city, in a border area, as something connected by at least a simple road.

In what I know of Brazilian cities, they always start on some commercial route connected by some form of transport. In my state, there were many cities that emerged because of the railroad and coffee plantations, but that was in a pre-car era.

But based on your description and reflecting a little, it would be pretty cool scenarios where the initial modal wasn't the road, or if it was a road that wasn't a big highway, but a dirt road.

One more thing, aren't you considering public transport on wheels as cars? Because I consider.

 

[Beer Fiend]

As much as OP is displaying signs of Cyclist Brain, I do concede that being forced to base a city around a motorway exit is inorganic. Most of my cities tend to be centred on a massive train station, as is often the case in the UK.

 

[Olexandr Pena]

As much as OP is displaying signs of Cyclist Brain, I do concede that being forced to base a city around a motorway exit is inorganic. Most of my cities tend to be centred on a massive train station, as is often the case in the UK.

This situation would be corrected by small intercity roads, it looks much more organic, but due to the mechanics of the highway and external connections, this cannot be done without mods

 

[gustavotoniato]

Perhaps the solution was for you to be able to choose how your city's initial connection to the outside world is; be able to create new connections

 

[TitaniumMan91]

This situation would be corrected by small intercity roads, it looks much more organic, but due to the mechanics of the highway and external connections, this cannot be done without mods

That's the part that's confusing me with OP, the issue is mechanical. There are pedestrian roads, mass transit can dominate how your cims get around, but everything still needs to be connected to the road network, which needs to have a highway ramp to get to the in/out flow of traffic. This needs to be a highway connection because no other road could support the traffic.

 

[Splorghley]

Repeating myself from the OP:

(PS: spare me the stupid false dilemmas like "but cities need roads, what about emergency vehicles if you ban cars, what if I need to haul three bookcases and seven shopping bags from IKEA, etc." in replies, please. I get enough of those in urbanist comments threads)

Oh, spare me. You're the one who wants something. "Please change your game to accommodate my preferences, but also don't ask me to explain my preferences or in any way justify them, it's just too much effort for me. Like, I can't even. Just do what I want."

It's easy to take the most central, economically privileged, tourist-heavy part of Ghent and pretend that's what Europe looks like. It's also easy to play that game in reverse. "Man, why can't Europe be as walkable as America?" In reality, the vast majority of European cities look like the vast majority of American cities - sprawling single-use residential suburbs and far-flung hypermarkets with highway access. CS reproduces that faithfully; where I'd like to see improvements is the city centres though, they don't feel like real city centres. I'd like to see more life in them. I suspect this is what OP means too, even though s/he chooses to ignorantly frame it as some Europe-America thing.

For what it's worth, I hope CS2 allows people to make all kinds of neighbourhoods - from the cul-de-sacs of Virginia through the moped jungle of Bangkok to the narrow, orderly streets of Tokyo and beyond. The wonderful frenetic mess that is Athens - the sleepy eucalypt-lined streets of Sydney suburbs. Venice and Venice Beach alike.

 

[Darsara]

The peoper integration of Plaza's & Promenades would be amazing.

 

[Lucododosor]

I see the discussion here is dangerously approaching personal attacks/insults. Let's back track a bit and keep the discussion civil and kind.
No infractions given yet.

 

[andrew.rosa]

What I miss most, and that's an engine limitation (on how to proceed with the simulation) is

1. Locality: someones goes to work or to buy things, it will choose at random. There is no real concept like local shopping for example. So, even CS1 with mixed zoning, while looks great will not reach much effect in traffic. We need an engine that understand a neighborhood is mostly self-sustainable to keep traffic local.
2. Parking: yeah, there are mods that does that which I don't have experience (never used), but would be welcome for the game to better model parking by default.

Wish these two, IMO, is not that we have a more or less car-centric game, but instead a game that better reflect the challenges with each style. The achievements point towards some district awareness, so MAYBE we have a step forward this wishes

 

[safe-keeper]

It's easy to take the most central, economically privileged, tourist-heavy part of Ghent and pretend that's what Europe looks like.

No one's pretending the tourist-heavy old towns are what all of Europe looks like.

 

[kenratboy]

I will agree and disagree with you at the same time. What I dislike is the fact objects need to be close to roads that often do not in real life. Parks, Universities addressed some of this, but would like to see it carry over to more elements. I like the concept of the Plazas DLC, and enjoy it, but it feels too restrictive and punitive (needing the service depot) and wish it could work alone if the building was near another road (like to the side or behind it). There are a lot of pedestrian areas where goods and service vehicles can visit directly, or are able to deliver goods via a back entrance.

Being it is a...game...if I want to put a shopping center on a foot path, let me! Let me decide what looks realistic or not. Having the need for the building to somehow be part of the 'network' makes sense, but be much looser and flexible about what this means.

 

[foamyesque]

The funny thing about C:S1 is that despite cities starting with gigantic highway exits, if you actually try to *build* car-centric cities, they choke and die, really really quickly.

CS1 isn't car-centric *per se*. It's built on a spine of roads, and cars and trucks are the *fallback* option to ensure your cims and their businesses can get around and receive goods. But a good solid majorty of the gameplay, even (possibly *especially even*) in a vanilla no DLC run, is about *getting those vehicles off the road as soon as possible*. Building massive interchanges that process huge chunks of traffic is fun in its own way, but for actually sorting traffic woes, it's land use choices and mass transit every time.

I wish there were better measurements for stuff like that, like the traffic flow indicator, because what gets done is what gets measured. But the gripe that CS1 teaches you One More Lane Will Fix It is not actually bourne out ingame on the effectiveness of that vs. mass transit.

Side note: The trailer had a bike lane, ships, and planes all shown, for what that's worth, and I'm pretty sure I saw some rail in the final shot as well. But, y'know, "Not Actual Gameplay Footage".

If the gripe is that CO's marketing material isn't made by Not Just Bikes, oh well.