Honest Opinion from a CKII fan

Honest Opinion from a CKII fan

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Chlodio

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Characters are way less likely to start a civil war, making it easy to go through the game without a single civil war and revolts are laughably easy to deal with because the element of surprise is gone and they have also been nerfed, making them almost never a threat.
And the few civil wars that occur are dull for their motivation and consequences. Just look at this faction:
20210122231712_1.jpg

That's a faction to replace the minor King of France with his middle-aged great aunt, two of four conspirators are already in the king's council, even the claimant's husband doesn't support the faction. This doesn't make any sense, why would these people risk everything to install some woman who doesn't even seem interested and will probably die before they win the civil war.

I'd prefer if:
  • there would be more claimants (extended to great-grandchildren, instead of grandchildren)
  • only ambitious characters could be used as third party claimants
  • faction members should excluded from the council
 
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x4077

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why would these people risk everything to install some woman who doesn't even seem interested and will probably die before they win the civil war.

Possibly because they hate their current liege so much that they would prefer just about anyone or anything else on the throne.

Also, in regards to your last preference, if you don't want faction members on your council you already have multiple means to take care of that.
 

qer

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Why are you on this forum, then?
Honestly what type of answer you expect? This is a public forum, and if I disagree with something I can state it. Is the opinion expressed in my post wrong? Because what I was refuting was the statement that CK2 is hard. That has nothing to do with Ck3
 
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Chlodio

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Possibly because they hate their current liege so much that they would prefer just about anyone or anything else on the throne.
I was kind of searching for some rationale behind the hate and how it connects to the treason. A lot of hatred comes from the desire to be the overlord of de jure counts, and I'm not sure how overthrowing your liege relates to treason. Seems like a long shot that the new liege would transfer wanted vassals, seems like there would many other ways to reach that end goal.

20210123030227_1.jpg

This faction member hates their liege because they have a claim and they don't like their personality. So, I don't understand their reason, they have a claim, which is why they hate their liege -20, which why they have joined a faction to... install somebody else, who they will also hate because they have a claim. Personality differences should not matter in joining factions, but it should be more action/opportunism-based.
20210123030409_1.jpg

Then you have this faction member who mildly dislikes their liege, I don't his stance warrant treason.

I feel like this game has the groundwork for a good system, but at the moment it isn't very immersive. How about a system where your actions actually reflect the opinion? When you grant more land to a vassal, all other vassals who haven't gotten a boon would lose opinion for your favoritism. When you lose a war, your vassal should question your competency.
 
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Lordy's

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I was kind of searching for some rationale behind the hate and how it connects to the treason. A lot of hatred comes from the desire to be the overlord of de jure counts, and I'm not sure how overthrowing your liege relates to treason. Seems like a long shot that the new liege would transfer wanted vassals, seems like there would many other ways to reach that end goal.

View attachment 673923
This faction member hates their liege because they have a claim and they don't like their personality. So, I don't understand their reason, they have a claim, which is why they hate their liege -20, which why they have joined a faction to... install somebody else, who they will also hate because they have a claim. Personality differences should not matter in joining factions, but it should be more action/opportunism-based.
View attachment 673925
Then you have this faction member who mildly dislikes their liege, I don't his stance warrant treason.

I feel like this game has the groundwork for a good system, but at the moment it isn't very immersive. How about a system where your actions actually reflect the opinion? When you grant more land to a vassal, all other vassals who haven't gotten a boon would lose opinion for your favoritism. When you lose a war, your vassal should question your competency.
Very much agreed. The logic for such treason should be totally reworked and characters should consider what they would gain from installing someone else as liege. So, for example being married to his family (the closer, the better). Being friends (of course then being friends with your liege should have some nice benefit, but that's another story). And as for opinion, they should only consider personal opinion modifiers, not all these "I desire the county of XY and you've got a short reign, so I will replace you with someone new who I'll despise the same once he's in power."
What's really necessary though is a promise system. If the claimant could promise his supporters to transfer vassals to them / give them a bit of the former lieges land / pardon their crimes, etc rebellions should make more sense.
Also: Why can't you invite people into your faction? (you have to use a hook, you don't see how close they are to joining without one). And for each faction member, it should display the reworked score for why the person is in that faction, so that the player can actually understand their motivations.
 
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Chlodio

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@Lordy's
Right, I don't even understand why reign length should have an impact on opinion.
 
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johnnybgood89

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How about at army reorganization screen to put the knights first so I don't need to scroll down after every click.
 

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I have played CK 1, CK 2 and now CK 3. CK 2 rocked. CK3 took some adjustments and needs some improvements to be better than CK 2. I do enjoy playing CK3 and like almost all of the changes from CK2, with the hope that the developers will fine tune aspects of the different cultures not having nearly identical dialog, military units and random events. It would nice tp see each culture as unique in at least some areas.
 
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Gaius Augustus Caligula

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I am a bit late, so this will probably go unrecognized.

I do agree that CK III lacks depth, however I am a fan of CK3s more Roleplaying and character driven approach. I very much hope that they do continue to add events and flesh out character relationships and all things directly connected to this.

The game does lack deeper strategy elements though. Like most other Paradox games (including CK 2 btw), CK 3 suffers from the same routine that is blobbing and ever stable Empires. This forces you to expand to be a big blob yourself, which is pretty easy since there are almost no anti-blobbing mechanics in the game.

Here are some things I think the game needs:

1. Deeper (internal) political systems (preferably through better faction systems). Realms should be more unstable due to characters wanting to climb the feudal ladder or becoming more powerfull and so on. Currently, factions aren't a big problem, especially late game imo. As was said in this thread before, we need more ways to interact with factions.

2. An economic/trade system would be nice. While it shouldn't be too in depth (it's the medieval age after all), an actual economy would be a nice new strategic layer and would give you something to do in peace time

3. Realm management. Somewhat similar to the economy, it would be nice to manage your personal domain. Since we have things like "county opinion" and "county control", I could very well imagine atleast some events which would be tied to your and your councillors skill.
For example: A powerfull Vassal is your steward. You chose him for the position, so he doesn't join a faction. He is however, totally inept at the tasks he is supposed to do. You get events which check his skills and he fails most of the time. As a result, county opinion and/or county control have negative modifiers, all the time. Maybe you can mitigate this a bit through your own skills or by paying gold.

While I do know that the game already has something similar to this, afaik the effects only hit one county and aren't really consequential. Events in this regard (or an actual mechanic) would make it more important and fun to engage with your council.

Minor things:

Religions lack flavour. While tenets and doctrines are nice, religions feel pretty bland. There isn't much difference between being a catholic or a buddhist flavour wise. ( Though I suspect this will get "fixed" with future updates and DLCs)

I have no problem with levy/MAA gathering in itself, but their numbers replenish way too fast. I have won multi-front wars I had no right to win realistically. But since levies come back so fast I could simply crush every invader/revolt that faced me. This shouldn't be a thing IMO, I should be crippled levy wise, if I have too many wars at the same time or in short succession.
 
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JonathanViking

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I Think they should make a rule in the future like This cinda

disables stress and personality traits that impacts education. For example Curious trait you whould Think, oh Now Im interested In everything. Turns out its Only religion/diplomacy he Only gets interested in
Also opens up more role play if the player has more freedome
 
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Tam MacKay

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And the few civil wars that occur are dull for their motivation and consequences. Just look at this faction:
View attachment 673803
That's a faction to replace the minor King of France with his middle-aged great aunt, two of four conspirators are already in the king's council, even the claimant's husband doesn't support the faction. This doesn't make any sense, why would these people risk everything to install some woman who doesn't even seem interested and will probably die before they win the civil war.

I'd prefer if:
  • there would be more claimants (extended to great-grandchildren, instead of grandchildren)
  • only ambitious characters could be used as third party claimants
  • faction members should excluded from the council

Not to argue completely against your point, but we have the historical case of John Toom Tabard Balliol who was constantly used as a puppet for a faction to push their familial claim to the throne, even when he was basically saying, feck this, let me just go hide in France. For the most part, it's on us in our own heads to create the story as to why these idiots would go for such a move, whereas it might be better serviced or advanced by a few more events, but even then, that'll get repetitive over game runs.

Seems more a case of just flavouring up factions and factionees, but again, seeing how we're waiting on the first dlc for the game to even get a dev diary, who knows how long this wee issue will take.
 
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Chlodio

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Not to argue completely against your point, but we have the historical case of John Toom Tabard Balliol who was constantly used as a puppet for a faction to push their familial claim to the throne, even when he was basically saying, feck this, let me just go hide in France.
I don't see that as a valid example.

As you are implying that John was always a puppet who didn't even want the crown, which isn't true. John most certainly wanted the crown and exercised authority until 1295, when the Scottish parliament decided he was abusing the authority and installed a regency council. When Edward invaded next year John abdicated.

And he wasn't hiding in France, after his abdication he was imprisoned in the Tower of London and later house-arrested in France.

You might be alluding to the numerous revolts that were claimed in his name while he was imprisoned which argue that John's abdication wasn't voluntary and thus not valid. And that just isn't the equivalent of the initial argument.
 

Mauer

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Completely 100% agree, I had the same impression when the game came out and stopped playing in October after a hundred hours in different starts. It's sad because the new systems are fun, the lifestyle traits and dynasty prestige or whatever it's called, but playing is just not interesting as a whole anymore.

I never considered CK2 a hard game by any means, but there were times things could get dicey and thus interesting as long as you didn't powergame all the time, and that's no reason to make CK3 just bend to your every whim at every turn. And this is leaving aside all the nonsensical heresies and op vikings that may be fixed by now (I have no idea since I haven't touched it in months).

It's like they made sure the game would appeal to as large a crowd as possible and turned from a strategy game about maintaining a dynasty and instead they just decided to make Sims in Medieval Europe.
 
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Tam MacKay

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I don't see that as a valid example.

As you are implying that John was always a puppet who didn't even want the crown, which isn't true. John most certainly wanted the crown and exercised authority until 1295, when the Scottish parliament decided he was abusing the authority and installed a regency council. When Edward invaded next year John abdicated.

And he wasn't hiding in France, after his abdication he was imprisoned in the Tower of London and later house-arrested in France.

You might be alluding to the numerous revolts that were claimed in his name while he was imprisoned which argue that John's abdication wasn't voluntary and thus not valid. And that just isn't the equivalent of the initial argument.

Yes, he always was a puppet, if not of his own family in their faction, then of England. Take into account how anyone and anyone had to swear fealty to Edward to even be considered in the great cause and legal battle that determined the proper heir. Throw in the fact that a noble could then drag him down to an English court over a Scottish ruling, to be admonished by his overlord, if that's not a puppet having its thumb fingered, then I don't know what else is.


The whole Wallace and affair was based upon John's claim to the throne, now, if you're locked in ye olde tower, does it benefit you at all, to have your subjects revolting against the lads who may or may not take away your food? Yeah, again he became a puppet of the rebellion. Hell, it was only after Wallace got his head and dangly bits lopped that his side of the nobles finally kowtow'd it, only for the Bruce faction to flare it up.

Don't get me wrong here, personally I'm a fan of the guy, if only because the Bruces did more damage to Scotland while this poor sod was king, than anything else, but if it weren't for the pressure of the factions inside Scotland, after he put that crown on, he likely would have flung it across the room.

Ah, good ol' historical debates, rare I get to chatter about daft Scots history.
 

Chlodio

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Yes, he always was a puppet, if not of his own family in their faction, then of England.
How would he be a puppet of his own family? He was the head of one of the wealthiest families, who of his family supposedly controlled him? His long-dead father? His obscure younger brothers?

Edward treated John as a vassal and John played along, that doesn't make him a puppet, it makes him a vassal. The whole concept of puppet monarch is that of a figurehead that held no power of his own, and John certainly held such power in Scotland, maybe not as an independent ruler but as a sub-ruler.

if that's not a puppet having its thumb fingered, then I don't know what else is.
Yes, a vassal lord is not a figurehead, you don't know.

I'm also disappointed that the biggest flaws of CK2 haven't been addressed in this game. Cultures still almost play no role in the game, no having them mixed with tech doesn't make them realistic or interesting...
I guess a good question is what you want from culture. I too feel culture is lackluster, but I can't imagine much with the current system. I'd go as far as to split culture into legal culture and social culture.

Legal culture would exclusive to provinces and hard to change, each legal culture would impact levies, taxes, succession laws, development growth, development, popular opinion.

Social culture would be for characters and provinces, it would retain innovations that have sliders that impact things like the opinion of female rulers, tolerance of foreigns, and religious tolerance. It could have social bonds that extend beyond culture group for example Polish and Hungarian could have a social bond that gives them +10 opinion of each other.
 

zaboli

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I guess a good question is what you want from culture. I too feel culture is lackluster, but I can't imagine much with the current system. I'd go as far as to split culture into legal culture and social culture.

Legal culture would exclusive to provinces and hard to change, each legal culture would impact levies, taxes, succession laws, development growth, development, popular opinion.

Social culture would be for characters and provinces, it would retain innovations that have sliders that impact things like the opinion of female rulers, tolerance of foreigns, and religious tolerance. It could have social bonds that extend beyond culture group for example Polish and Hungarian could have a social bond that gives them +10 opinion of each other.

I really like your ideas about social and legal culture. I actually would just have liked more RPG/customization aspects about cultures. Give us to ability to customize or develop our own culture. For example if you are constantly at war, you could unlock a perk where your culture becomes warlike, and you will have +10% infantry bonus or something... It would also be nice if players have the decision to mix or form new cultures. For example if you are a Turk and conquer Russia, you would have the option to form a new Turko-Russian culture, where you can choose a combination of the perks which I previously explained. You would get penalties from your own brethren but it would be easier to assimilate the conquered people. This is something that happened A LOT in CK timeframe (English, Sicilians, Andalusians, Turko-Persians, Etc.).

Let the players go crazy with customization, for staters let us choose a name, let us choose or even customize our unit graphics, the default kind of clothes for our people, etc. The AI could just give the name of the 2 default culture names like for ex. Swedish-German, and choose the unit graphics + perks of the most dominant culture. There could also be a few pre-determined cultures present like for example Norman+AngloSaxon = English. I think this system would fit CK perfectly and it would make the world feel much more alive.
 
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