Honest Opinion from a CKII fan

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Quimera

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I agree I also didn't expect CK3 to have the same amount as content as CK2, I am not asking the impossible of the devs. But like I mentioned numerous times, I don't like in what direction the 'depth' has gone. The depth is in the form of skill trees and events, I don't care too much about either of these TBH. Skill trees feel restricted, rail-roaded and forced. It is kind of like the national focusses in HOI4 you just wait till you unlock a button so you can do something. Players should DO something to unlock something instead of waiting. Look at the coronation decision in CK2, you actually have to do a mission for the pope before you can be coronated. Why aren't we allowed to actively do something with our character before we unlock new perks? For example winning 3 wars to unlock a perk, in the strategy skill tree. And even though doing something would a significant improvement, it would still be kind of lame because I always know exactly what to expect in every playthrough.


Thank you! From a marketing point of view, I would probably have made almost the exact same decision as the developers. Making the game more simple, focus on weird meme-like events so videos on YouTube will be trending and introducing 3D models so more people can immerse themselves in the experience. Let's be honest, older PDX games are incredibly niche, and I don't know anyone IRL that enjoys CKII or EUIV because it is so hard to learn these games. It would have simply be too much of a risk to make CK3 even more complex and deep than CK2.

But if I had to make the game just for the extremely niche-strategy audience I would have taken the game in an entirely different direction. I am not a game developer so I don't know how realistic my ideas are and how an AI can handle these mechanics:

- First of all, I would have focussed just on Christian Europe for the release version, so we would have had 1 really fleshed out region instead of a very broad map but with hardly any regional flavor.
- I would have introduced an economy and trade system. Trade goods would give you access to certain retinue units similar to Stellaris and IR. Trade would be similar to Civ 6 where you can send merchants to other kingdoms to create trade routes.
- I would have completely reworked the combat system. The new system in IR looks great where you have a combination of levies and retinues. With the trade goods system where you have access to different units, regions would feel entirely different. In Germany, you would have heavy infantry that is slower but tankier and in the steppes you'll have large mobile cavalry armies.
- I would also have reworked the peace deal and cassus belli system. Where peace deals are more similar to EU4, but way more restricted in how much land you can take. Make it incredibly costly to take provinces that you don't have a claim on. Just a system where you are not forced to take an entire nation on its knees for 1 exclave province and were there are actual consequences if your entire country is occupied by the enemy
- I would make the faction system deeper, where new kinds of factions spawn depending on your playstyle. Do you have a lot of merchant republics as vassals? Maybe there will be a merchant faction that 8wants to transform the kingdom into a republic. it would also be great if you could do interactions with factions. Like for example making a deal with factions that supports a pretender, where he gives up his claims if you agree to conquer a neighboring province for him. Make the factions a more dynamic part of the game, that can give you a lot of benefits and headaches, instead of an alternative rebel system.
- I would introduce more options to personalize your kingdom. There was for example a mod in CK2 where you could customize your own palace, why not introduce that into the game? Give us the ability to found military orders, where we can customize them as we wish. You could create your very own Varangian Guard or janissaries. They could then later appear as a faction into the game. Maybe a system where we can place a character into the canon of a kingdom, immortalizing them as a legend. Kind of like mix between the deitify function in IR and the bloodline system in CK2. Too summarize more nation-building functions, so there is more of a sense of personalization, progression and accomplishment in the late game.

Love how always in many forum and in Imperator there are always people complaining about how unoriginal is that Paradox brings a lot of mechanics from older titles making their games inspirational from each other, that is what was the main complaint when Imperator come out, many mechanics were bad executes.
1- Disagree that just Europe need to be the only centre of the game by one year at all, what about the Muslim players, heathens (well North Pagans), Indians, Steppes and African powers? all of them have to play only in Europe? waiting until paradox come years later with a new DLC for every corner? What about the experience that Paradox had with the last DLC for every continent in CK2? it wouldn't have been added?
2-A trade system was something hard to do in the Medieval age, because constant warfare and barely any commercial boat to carry products and materials, to create an economic system, it is required to add resources by baronies, something PD didn't have planned to do.
3- What the combat system needed was one where we could command or the AI have to design the flanks and rear with troops, the same that CK2 but deeper with rear and vanguard (not same that front line), score to Paradox because they at least add dozens of exclusives units base in cultures, something that Imperator lacked, Imperator just did well about having some units require resources.
4-Peace deal indeed that needed an overhaul, but no way to become the same that EU4, the one in EU4 is fine to recreate the stability in borders of the modern states and how little it varied but with years to come it was possible to modern states to annex a lot of provinces in one war. In EU4 warfare is boring because you have to conquer and occupied all enemy provinces to barely annex some provinces, in Imperator still the same and devs are going to address that, in Ck3 if we do how you want, Empires like the Mongols or Turks wouldn't be recreated, in ck2 you always had to wait until the next CB, unless you adopt another religion and go full Deux vult, in CK3 you have more options and you are limited, you cant declare non-stop warfares with casus bellis of the kingdom, you have to manage to marry your children to get in a future the best claim to reclaim.
5- Faction system is so deeper as the characters managed inside the game are, thanks to hooks and many factions in-game, like independence or claimants you have a lot of chance to gain/lost your titles or more, Republics again, were not one of the main points to be brought from CK2, not to mention they were zero replayability in CK2 and you just played them for roleplaying. You won't want that Paradox to do the same mistake that they did with Imperator right? where the Oligarch Republic barely have my difference from a Plutarchy Monarchy.
6-Yes I would like to switch the colours of my realm and its coat of arms too.
7- A lot of that stuff is in the game, based in your dynasty prestige can improve your dynasty, besides those features weren't add to CK2 and Imperator until late.
 
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durbal

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1- waiting until paradox come years later with a new DLC for every corner?

Yeah. If I want to play as them now the only thing I get is a reskin. Playing as the Byzantines, for example, feels pretty lame knowing that you're just a purple Greek wannabe French feudal. At that point am I even playing as a Byzantine ruler? Looks great for marketing purposes I guess though.
 
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TheFeudalBavarian

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2-A trade system was something hard to do in the Medieval age, because constant warfare and barely any commercial boat to carry products and materials, to create an economic system, it is required to add resources by baronies, something PD didn't have planned to do.

Trade did exist in the middle ages, but it was nothing a King would have micromanaged. The only thing what a feudal ruler was interested in, you selling stuff in my realm? I want 10%. You cross my bridge? I want 10%. You want to unload goods in my port? I want 10%. We already getting this in form of monthly income. That's why it wouldn't fit in the game if you play a feudal ruler. Actually, most ships in that time were trade ships. Most Kings didn't maintain a navy that is worth speaking of and they just used trade ships to move troops. The Venetian traders maintained trade fleets, as well as the Hanseatic league. But again...that only happened in big scale in the late middle ages. Trade always existed....but I don't think it would make a good game mechanic for this specific game. The exception could be a Cities and Republics DLC.
 
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durbal

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But you get it wrong, that it is not because it feels the same to play at any site of the world, that is because it is lame to play without a deeper political system, and the only stuff assembles to those, are feudal contracts and vassal power/independence, that affect to all the world and not Europe, besides that is a lie, the world in CK3 is more living, with so many units, exclusive buildings and not to mention the improved religion system, that changes the whole playstyle at the difference of CK2. So you better check your mind before being so eurocentrist.

These are words but they don't mean anything when put together and certainly not in the context of what I wrote.

Also, please don't call people things like 'eurocentrist' because they think focusing on depth rather than breadth for game mechanics is a better idea...
 
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Quimera

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These are words but they don't mean anything when put together and certainly not in the context of what I wrote.

Also, please don't call people things like 'eurocentrist' because they think focusing on depth rather than breadth for game mechanics is a better idea...
@zabioli post that they "focussed just on Christian Europe for the release version", so the players will have to forget about deeper corners of the world? like the Muslim states, waiting to be conquered by Crusader Estates? Because if many events and buffs related to mechanics, a lot of no European nations will be eas9ier than current in-game to be annexed, excuse me if I looked like I called you racist, I just want to point out that a focus in just a playable zone and forgetting other Religions, will make wrong to the game. Enable more dlc quantity for every corner like CK2 was, doing zones lack in identity until they pay for more.
 

tribunus_plebis

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The role-playing aspects gave context to your campaign, but they weren't the reason why I played a campaign. I don't feel like I am playing a game anymore about managing my kingdom where stories form dynamically. I feel now that I'm playing a game where a story is generated through random events.

I think that summarizes everything for me, and I agree with all your post. Have the same feelings overall on CK3.

After playing CK3, went back to play EU4 and Imperator Rome and I was relieved to be able to play some damn strategy game.
 
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zaboli

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@zabioli post that they "focussed just on Christian Europe for the release version", so the players will have to forget about deeper corners of the world? like the Muslim states, waiting to be conquered by Crusader Estates? Because if many events and buffs related to mechanics, a lot of no European nations will be eas9ier than current in-game to be annexed, excuse me if I looked like I called you racist, I just want to point out that a focus in just a playable zone and forgetting other Religions, will make wrong to the game. Enable more dlc quantity for every corner like CK2 was, doing zones lack in identity until they pay for more.
I specifically said that I would make the same decisions as the devs if I was in charge of the Ck3 project. Right now CK has a very multicultural audience so it would be unacceptable from a marketing point of view to only have Christians playable at release. Times have changed since Ck2.

I am not an eurocentrist at all and I am well aware that Asia and Africa are very interesting places to explore. I even think that they are underrepresented in strategy games.

I'm just trying to say that I prefer 1 fleshed out region with tons of features and flavor that surpasses the gameplay of that specific region from Ck2. Instead of making everyone playable from the beginning but with little to no special game mechanics to a specific region.
 
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Yes, it could be interesting if we get a DLC that focuses on playing the mayor or doge of a republic. Game mechanics for this could be the expansion of trade, trying to get independent of Feudal liege, making alliances/leagues with other cities/republics (like for example the Hanseatic league). Instead of a council you could have that filled with different guild leaders to interact with. This would have completely different game mechanics than the Vanilla CK3, but I am sure it could added on top of the basis game. I don't think this is missing in the current CK3, but would make an interesting DLC in the future. It could even have a later start date than 1066.
Trying to get independence from feudal liege would be grand for getting the lombard league to actually fire sometime and not just have a forever strong Duke of Milan

Rex teutonicorum's (iron century before iron century existed) peasant commune gov form being added so peasant leaders don't immediately become feudal would be nice
 
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johnnybgood89

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Alliances are really good for me in this game, they always help and save my ... after every sucession... I don't like how I need to fight every time after my ruler dies, even if I have good traits. Wasn't like that in CK2.
So I 99% marry cuz of the alliances not cuz of the traits. Two strong alliances asap! and when they rebel against me, Im save... This is the 3rd time now.

But crusades... Oh dear... We have like 60k troop vs Muslims, they have like 16k... Allied army is goin into the desert instead Jerusalem, they are constantly disembark from the ships then go to the sea again in the loop, and in the end we lose the Crusade. I don't know if this is a bug or the AI is just bad. Hope they will improve that, and set the more visible focus of the crusade target.
 
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Sorry to go back to these comment, but I'm late to this thread and it doesn't look like some one has made these point yet. Also, for the recoded I loved CK2 and played thousands of hours, but only was introduced to it when Horse Lords was about to come out. And I think CK3 is a overall more enjoyable game than CK2 (though there are some areas that definitely need to be fleshed out) and I think both of them are strategically easy (though I like that in both there are multiple ways to solve a problem).

I don't feel the same way as you. Events are only interesting the first time but afterward, I just read what the consequences are and click on the most beneficial decision. If events are coded in a way that they are significantly different each time it 'could' be interesting... Example: Event about a duel that gives a different description depending on the personality traits of the character. Like a kind character reluctant to kill an enemy and a sadistic character bulging out eyeballs. I know that there already decisions based on personality traits, but I specifically mean that the entire description of the event should be changed so you rarely read the same thing twice. It would be way too much work for little reward though and in the end, it just remains a scripted wall of text. For me, stories form because the strategic gameplay synchronizes with the characters. Here is an example:

- In CK3 there is an event about you as a child bonding with a pet, it was a fun read the first time around but I skipped reading it the 2nd time and just looked at the consequences of my decision. All the event did was just giving you a +1 in diplomacy, and some follow up events like the dog biting a council member, but it all felt very insignificant in the grand scheme of things. In other words, it didn't synchronize with the gameplay, the story of my characters didn't progress because I did something, the story progressed because it was scripted that this event has xx% of spawning. Events like this are fine, but they are not the reason why I am immersed because I didn't really do anything.

Here is an example of when I was immersed by character-driven gameplay in a PDX game. In CK2 I was playing as a duke in France, who had a lot of learning skill but was a misguided warrior. I went on a crusade were his martial skill slightly improved, and he eventually became a tough soldier, still I wasn't able to do much within the realm because I was one of the weaker dukes, I still had a lot of piety due to my learning skill and crusade experience. Than the Aztec invaded and conquered all of France, I was banished to 1 holding I had in Italy, but martial skill did increase again to skillful tactician because I was a commander in the French army. With the piety I got I recruited Holy orders to reconquer my holdings in France, once again I improved in martial to brilliant strategist, and eventually conquered all remaining holding in the French the jure making me king of France. I went from a weak misguided warrior to a martial legend. All of this happened without a single special event.

The second example is in a different series Imperator Rome. I was playing as Bactria and had a king + heir with really poor stats. The bad news was that both the Mauryans and Persians were at my doorstep. To strengthen my position I invaded the northern tribal kingdoms, and I received a new character with 15 Martial skill, admittedly during an event. But to be fair the event basically just said here is a good character do you want to recruit him? There wasn't really any story and it didn't hurt the experience. Anyway I used the character as a commander in my defensive wars against the Mauryans and he became more and more popular and I was getting attached to him. Eventually I adopted him, but my heir died, making him the new heir. He eventually became king and went from a nobody to the savior and king of Bactria, but not before a massive civil war broke between the other pretenders of the king.

Maybe an example from an entirely different franchise like Total War: Three Kingdoms. I wasn't immersed in the characters because of the events that fired during the game, I was immersed because the characters grew based on my decision. Liu Bei didn't form a friendship with Cao Cao in my campaign thanks to events, but because I put them together as commanders in many battles. Making it all the more spectacular when Cao Cao left my faction to join the enemy, I was actually in a situation where I dueled Cao Cao with Liu Bei later in a campaign. None of this wouldn't have felt as personal if it was just railroaded in events. I was hoping CK3 would be full with epic stuff like this, but it rarely happens in a natural way.

My point is that stories need to form organically in gameplay, and shouldn't rely just on events. Yes events can spice up things significantly because I wouldn't have received the martial character in IR without the help of events, but the way the story progressed was not because of events but because of the way I made strategic decisions throughout my campaign.

For CK2 most of the events weren't really that organic (the infamous your character just randomly changed traits come to mind). Plus most event in CK2 had an obvious right answer, pretty much every time an event popped up in CK2 I knew which option to pick as it was the same as last time I got that event. This is in contrast to CK3 where I will regularly pick a different option for an event based on what I need in the moment (either due to the new stress system or because there are often multiple good options to pick from).

Where CK2 out shines CK3 is in sheer number of events, but that is understandable given the very different amounts of time that these two games have been developed. And I think it's maybe the sheer number of events that helps hides that the CK2 events, while having some good flavour, were mechanically boring.

Honestly reading the only CK2 example you gave above, I get the feeling that you prefer the CK2 systems where you can take any character and with enough time make them great at whichever stat you want. While I do agree that character growth is somewhat lacking in CK3, I hardly found the CK2 system any better as it was just too easy to make your character a living god (though I can understand that might be other people's cup of tea).

I agree I also didn't expect CK3 to have the same amount as content as CK2, I am not asking the impossible of the devs. But like I mentioned numerous times, I don't like in what direction the 'depth' has gone. The depth is in the form of skill trees and events, I don't care too much about either of these TBH. Skill trees feel restricted, rail-roaded and forced. It is kind of like the national focusses in HOI4 you just wait till you unlock a button so you can do something. Players should DO something to unlock something instead of waiting. Look at the coronation decision in CK2, you actually have to do a mission for the pope before you can be coronated. Why aren't we allowed to actively do something with our character before we unlock new perks? For example winning 3 wars to unlock a perk, in the strategy skill tree. And even though doing something would a significant improvement, it would still be kind of lame because I always know exactly what to expect in every playthrough.

I agree more can be done to improve the trees and have more sources from where you can gain experience for the trees. But CK2 isn't really any better. The trees in CK3 are essentially the way of life lifestyle events redone as a skill tree. Mechanically they are very similar, you choose a lifestyle and then wait until you unlock the various benefits, it's mostly the presentation that has changed (a presentation that facilitates more strategic thinking for players, especially new ones, as one can actually way their options).



Ultimately my reading of CK3 is that it is a good base that will hopefully be fleshed out nicely in the future (and currently I'm optimistic about it's prospects). But even despite it's flaws, I find it to be a more enjoyable game than CK2 already. This is because even though I deeply enjoyed CK2, CK2 was a very flawed game. In a weird way, I think one of the "faults" of CK3, is that because it does a better job of presenting itself, so it also does a better job of presenting it's flaws than CK2 did.

As both games have their benefits and flaws, so I can understand liking CK2 more as a point of personal preference. But I do find it weird to hold up CK2 as an example of a strategically well balanced game as, if you knew how to work the interface, it was pretty easy to break the game.



I also decided to give some feedback to your ideas for what you'd like to include in the game. Note, this is not to say I think you are wrong (as most of my disagreements are just a difference of personal preference after all), but that I found them interesting and so wanted to give my thoughts.

But if I had to make the game just for the extremely niche-strategy audience I would have taken the game in an entirely different direction. I am not a game developer so I don't know how realistic my ideas are and how an AI can handle these mechanics:

- First of all, I would have focussed just on Christian Europe for the release version, so we would have had 1 really fleshed out region instead of a very broad map but with hardly any regional flavor.

While this could possibly had made for a better initial release, I think this creates more problems down the road as plenty of mechanics would have to be reworked as the map expands.

Plus I think having the map being more broad encourages choices like having religions have the more generalizable mechanics such as tenets/doctrines and having events be tied to those. Instead of a smaller initial map, which would encourage the CK2 system where events and mechanics were more religion specific. While I think CK3 could use more religion/faith specific events/flavour, the problem with building the game around this is that it doesn't allow for more dynamic options. There's a reason heresies in CK2 were so boring, to make them anything but, the devs would need to make personalized events/mechanics for each heresy. Where as in CK3, if I create a faith the devs never envisioned it will still have some events/mechanics associated with it as it has the tenets and doctrines to work off of (though again CK3 could benefit from more of these, especially fun synergies).

Lastly given how unfleshed out most of the world is and that most the CK3 title history is taken from CK2. I don't think shrinking the map for the CK3 release would actually have given the devs that much more development time. Especially when the people who would be coming up with new mechanics and systems are probably not also the people that had to place all the baronies (and again most of this research was already done by the CK2 team).

- I would have introduced an economy and trade system. Trade goods would give you access to certain retinue units similar to Stellaris and IR. Trade would be similar to Civ 6 where you can send merchants to other kingdoms to create trade routes.

This here is a great example of what I was referring to above. A trade system with a reduced map would work very differently from a trade system with the entire map as they would have to figure out what to do with off map resources or re-balance trade when off map resources get added to the game.

Plus I'm not a fan of the Civ/Stellaris/IR style trade. I don't find it very interesting or realistic. Plus I don't think it would work well with the multiple levels of government that exist in CK. I'd prefer a more organic way for resources to move around the map, focused more on building the structures to facilitated trade.

- I would have completely reworked the combat system. The new system in IR looks great where you have a combination of levies and retinues. With the trade goods system where you have access to different units, regions would feel entirely different. In Germany, you would have heavy infantry that is slower but tankier and in the steppes you'll have large mobile cavalry armies.

This I could get behind. I hope, like they are adding to IR, they eventually make different cultures and/or terrain supply different types of levies.

- I would also have reworked the peace deal and cassus belli system. Where peace deals are more similar to EU4, but way more restricted in how much land you can take. Make it incredibly costly to take provinces that you don't have a claim on. Just a system where you are not forced to take an entire nation on its knees for 1 exclave province and were there are actual consequences if your entire country is occupied by the enemy

While maybe not the most popular opinion, but I'm not a fan of EU4 style peace deals for CK3 (outside of some peoples suggestions of having more non-land related options, such as marriage contracts as part of ending a war). For fixing the all out war problem, I think the war system should be modified to have owning the war goal greatly increasing war score/ticking war score such that wars are overall shorter and focused, especially if over a single county. Plus levies should take longer to regenerate to make wars more costly. The only major change I'd really like to see is that the defender can declare their own war goal (similar to Stellaris) such that the attacker can lose land if the defender has a claim they can press and wins the war.

- I would make the faction system deeper, where new kinds of factions spawn depending on your playstyle. Do you have a lot of merchant republics as vassals? Maybe there will be a merchant faction that 8wants to transform the kingdom into a republic. it would also be great if you could do interactions with factions. Like for example making a deal with factions that supports a pretender, where he gives up his claims if you agree to conquer a neighboring province for him. Make the factions a more dynamic part of the game, that can give you a lot of benefits and headaches, instead of an alternative rebel system.

While I like the the idea, I don't agree with the republic example. I'm personally a fan of more along the idea of your second suggestion, where factions push you to expand or changing things about your realm in certain ways (almost like a short term quest with either a carrot and/or stick encouraging you to do it).

- I would introduce more options to personalize your kingdom. There was for example a mod in CK2 where you could customize your own palace, why not introduce that into the game? Give us the ability to found military orders, where we can customize them as we wish. You could create your very own Varangian Guard or janissaries. They could then later appear as a faction into the game. Maybe a system where we can place a character into the canon of a kingdom, immortalizing them as a legend. Kind of like mix between the deitify function in IR and the bloodline system in CK2. Too summarize more nation-building functions, so there is more of a sense of personalization, progression and accomplishment in the late game.

Only merchant republics could personalize the palace in CK2. And that was essentially what you can do in CK3, choosing what buildings to build in your capital (and CK3 is more strategic in this regard as you can't build every building in your captial). Edit: Sorry didn't catch you were talking about a mod.

Plus you can personalize your military in the form of MaA, sure it's not called something special, but that's functionally what they are (though the idea of your MaA having a role in your internal politics is intriguing). Lastly the ability to some how mark a character as particularly important to the history of your family/realm I could get behind.
 
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Only merchant republics could personalize the palace in CK2. And that was essentially what you can do in CK3, choosing what buildings to build in your capital (and CK3 is more strategic in this regard as you can't build every building in your captial). Plus you can personalize your military in the form of MaA, sure it's not called something special, but that's functionally what they are (though the idea of your MaA having a role in your internal politics is intriguing). Lastly the ability to some how mark a character as particularly important to the history of your family/realm I could get behind.
He's talking about a mod not the vanilla merchant Republic palaces
 
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Great input @pengoyo i don't really disagree with your points but it is clear to me that we like the CK series for different reasons. Like I already mentioned I do not care too much about events, they should be there to give some flavor but they should not be a MAJOR part of the game. I have the same opinion about them on Stellaris, where I was also a little bit disappointed that events are a major part of the early exploration game.

I'm not saying that they should shrink the map, I'm saying that they shouldn't have made everyone playable at release, so we would have more content and flavor for the regions that are playable. After all, do I really feel like an African chief following the Egyptian pantheon in the middle of the dessert if I look like a bedouin, with no special decisions, no unique music or unit graphics, no special game mechanics, etc. Why should I ever play as a Mongolian Khan in CK3 if CK2 Horse Lords exists?

Trade shouldn't be exactly like I proposed, but I think that introducing some kind of economic system would make each region feel so much more unique. You don't need to have special game mechanics to have a different experience if some kind of economy exists. Playing in the baltic in EU4 at release for example was entirely different from playing in Italy because of the trading system. In Stellaris and IR, you'll have access to unique units not because of unique cultures but because of trade goods. I also think that there is no sense of progression in CK3, so seeing that your economy is building up, will keep you hooked longer and you'll have some sense of accomplishment if you made your kingdom from a medieval backwater into a prospering place.

I can agree with your point about peace deals. I said that players should be more restricted in how much provinces they can take in a war with EU4 peace deal system. Stellaris' system maybe would indeed work better. All I'm asking is if there are actual consequences if you're kingdom is fully occupied, and that not each war feels like total war.

Factions have a lot of potential indeed. It could be mix of EU4 estates and the current faction system. Where you could do interactions with them, but they are also the reason why a civil war could ignite. New factions could spawn throughout your campaign depending on your decisions.

MaA are not same at all in with I proposed. I specifically meant to fully customize a military order. Let us give them a name, give them a role, customize what kind of order they are like a bodyguard of a foreign culture or a slave army etc. This was just an example of giving the player more choice in what kind of kingdom they create.
 
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Right now I'd be happy with just getting an AI that was more than a speed bump and a UI that was functional as the CK2 one was.
 

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Would like to have auto hire option for the knights when they arrive like if > 15 hire, if < 15 don't or something like that. Constant spam of the messages is annoying.
 

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One thing which I find streamlines thing a lot and kinda makes CKIII more mechanical game than a role-playing game is the fact that you now know how long pretty much everything will take. In CK2 the MTTH system was great because it made everything dynamic. Sometimes for example getting a claim took so long that you did a lot of things in the meantime, and often your plans changed due to what happened during that time. Now you always know that whatever you do takes X months, and then you just wait that out.
 
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This is not a rant nor a review, but simply, the opinion of a long time fan, about CK3 after playing 6 campaigns since release. First of all, I am a big fan of CK2, it is probably one of my favorite games of all time. I bought CK2 when Sons of Abraham just came out so I don't know what its state was at release, but I was always impressed by how each playthrough was so unique. No matter who you played, there was always a good story waiting for you mixed with interesting strategic challenges. It is one of those games that even after 1000 hours still surprises you.

I have always been reluctant to post my thoughts on CK3, because PDX games are huge and it's difficult to immediately express your thoughts about it. I however like to say that I'm a bit disappointed with how CK3 turned out, and it went in a direction that doesn't really suit me. The only real improvement in CK3 in my opinion are the 3D portraits. These simply look amazing and it is impressive how a random character generator is able to spawn, realistic-looking characters that all look unique. They also significantly help the role-playing aspect of the game. Sadly I can't say the same for the map graphics and interface, which both look very bland.

Sadly I feel that there isn't a 'game' anymore around these RPG mechanics. People keep praising CK3 for the role-playing, but it always felt restricted in the form of random events. Frankly, I think random events should be a 'nice-to-have' and not the backbone of the game. Random events are extremely limited, they feel forced and they get old very quickly. I just don't get excited by reading the same thing 5 times. To be fair CK2 also suffered from this but there were still a lot of interesting strategic challenges to overcome, so the game remained interesting. The role-playing aspects gave context to your campaign, but they weren't the reason why I played a campaign. I don't feel like I am playing a game anymore about managing my kingdom where stories form dynamically. I feel now that I'm playing a game where a story is generated through random events.

You may be puzzled because the mechanics present in CK2 are still in CK3, but they have all been streamlined so much that there not very interesting anymore. Warfare has become incredibly easy once you understand the skill trees. Not only is the rally system a huge downgrade, but it is way too easy to overpower everyone in the game. If you understand you know that is now very easy to form alliances and abuse mercenaries due to stewardship and diplomacy skill trees. I never felt threatened by the AI after learning the skill trees. The skill trees themselves are also not really interesting gameplay-wise, you just wait till you unlock a new perk, or get a bonus through random events. This is even made worse by the fact that Cassus Belli's cost a lot of prestige and piety mana now, and there are not enough ways to increase them except for unlocking perks in the skill trees or doing a decision every 5-10 years. My strategy in CK3 is 90% of the time 'wait until I unlock this, so I can do this' out of all the PDX games, CK3 feels the most like a waiting game. It also is way too easy, in all 6 of my playthroughs, it was shockingly easy to conquer huge chunks of the map without any anti-blob mechanics. I for example conquered all of France and Iberia with a single character, and I didn't even really use a strategy aside from waiting to unlock my next cassus belli. Even my campaign to restore Zoroastrian Persia was pretty easy, with almost no strategy involved.

The internal politics are also too easy to manage right now. On paper things sound great, you have now dread mechanics which allows different playstyles, the RNG element of plots and revolts is more restricted, and the player is stuck with partition succession for most of the game. In practice, this just doesn't work out. Plots are way too easy to pull off right now, eliminating the risk of executing them. Characters are way less likely to start a civil war, making it easy to go through the game without a single civil war and revolts are laughably easy to deal with because the element of surprise is gone and they have also been nerfed, making them almost never a threat.

I'm also disappointed that the biggest flaws of CK2 haven't been addressed in this game. Cultures still almost play no role in the game, no having them mixed with tech doesn't make them realistic or interesting... Warfare and peace deals in CK are the weakest out of all the PDX games, but instead of improving it they have downgraded it. There is no economic system, and also not a real sense of progression in building up your nation unlike in for ex. Imperator Rome or Stellaris.

The fact that there are still a lot of mechanics missing that were present in CK2 doesn't help. This is 100% understandable because CK3 in its first year can't compete with CK2 who had years of DLC, but it still feels like I'm playing a lesser version of something better making it hard to enjoy the game.

I am very happy for the fans and Paradox that CK3 is experiencing a lot of success. And I was very excited to see it nominated for several Game of the Year awards. It's a joy to see that Crusader Kings is now finally getting the attention it deserves from mainstream gamers. I'm just a little bit disappointed that I feel alienated from the community because for me Crusader Kings II was great for its mix between strategy and role-playing. Now however it feels like a story generator, and the strategy elements aren't the focus of the game anymore. Maybe future patches and expansions will change my view on CK3, but I don't think I will ever return to the game in its current state.
I completely agree.

I also hope that the difficulty option in CK3 drops the opinion malus, and instead boost AI aggression towards human player, boost their ability to amass larger levies, and boost their anti human alliance, especially if human player is becoming a powerful Empire.
Making your vassals artificially more angry with you isnt that fun in my opinion, though, a little harder overall wouldnt be a problem.

Also, make religion opinion modifier harsher, and stress a lot more stressful. As of now I havent reached stress level 2 more than once when I first started out.

This game needs more external threats, and mechanics to deal with powerful Empires, especially human empires. Right now it seems that the AI(Which in spirit of RPG should care about the world around them) is oblivious to rising powers, and the islamic world keeps loosing to the crusaders.

One more thing, Paradox said they had mechanics for making smaller nations able to defend and maybe win against larger nations, but the battle modifiers are so soft that the biggest number still wins. I never think about terrain, passing a enemy castle might kill 150 men, so what, no battle modifier malus for behind enemy lines? Supply wont reach you that easily behind one or two castles.
Make medieval castles shine, they were a major slow down to warfare and immensily important in medieval times. I would give few exceptions to this rule, giving nomad horse peoples, like mongols and other steppe people able to raid and pass enemy castles without malus modifier, making them bad siegers, but a dangerous raider and open battle army.

Okey this became a rant, and its all written in a hurry, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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One thing which I find streamlines thing a lot and kinda makes CKIII more mechanical game than a role-playing game is the fact that you now know how long pretty much everything will take. In CK2 the MTTH system was great because it made everything dynamic. Sometimes for example getting a claim took so long that you did a lot of things in the meantime, and often your plans changed due to what happened during that time. Now you always know that whatever you do takes X months, and then you just wait that out.
Ah yes, the old MTTH system for councillor tasks, where you wait for anytime between tomorrow and the end of time itself. Making new players in Ireland wait 20 years for a single claim whilst they twiddle their thumbs as a count sure is dynamic, but I'm not quite sure I'd describe it as 'great'.

Don't get me wrong I understand what you mean in that perhaps councillor tasks at the moment are too quick and static in length, however I don't want to ever see the MTTH system attached to tasks again like in CK2. There's definitely a happy medium that can be achieved.
 
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Ah yes, the old MTTH system for councillor tasks, where you wait for anytime between tomorrow and the end of time itself. Making new players in Ireland wait 20 years for a single claim whilst they twiddle their thumbs as a count sure is dynamic, but I'm not quite sure I'd describe it as 'great'.

Don't get me wrong I understand what you mean in that perhaps councillor tasks at the moment are too quick and static in length, however I don't want to ever see the MTTH system attached to tasks again like in CK2. There's definitely a happy medium that can be achieved.
The thing is that you were forced to involve in the dynastic politics of your neighbours because fabricating claims was almost always too unreliable and took too long. Yet you did appreciate when you had a courtier with +20 stats. Now I always use same strategy, fabricate claim, conquer neighbours, invest in skill tree for better cassus belli, conquer till I'm empire tier.
 
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I completely agree.

I also hope that the difficulty option in CK3 drops the opinion malus, and instead boost AI aggression towards human player, boost their ability to amass larger levies, and boost their anti human alliance, especially if human player is becoming a powerful Empire.
Making your vassals artificially more angry with you isnt that fun in my opinion, though, a little harder overall wouldnt be a problem.

Also, make religion opinion modifier harsher, and stress a lot more stressful. As of now I havent reached stress level 2 more than once when I first started out.

This game needs more external threats, and mechanics to deal with powerful Empires, especially human empires. Right now it seems that the AI(Which in spirit of RPG should care about the world around them) is oblivious to rising powers, and the islamic world keeps loosing to the crusaders.

One more thing, Paradox said they had mechanics for making smaller nations able to defend and maybe win against larger nations, but the battle modifiers are so soft that the biggest number still wins. I never think about terrain, passing a enemy castle might kill 150 men, so what, no battle modifier malus for behind enemy lines? Supply wont reach you that easily behind one or two castles.
Make medieval castles shine, they were a major slow down to warfare and immensily important in medieval times. I would give few exceptions to this rule, giving nomad horse peoples, like mongols and other steppe people able to raid and pass enemy castles without malus modifier, making them bad siegers, but a dangerous raider and open battle army.

Okey this became a rant, and its all written in a hurry, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I agree on paper all the new features of Ck3 sound great, but there aren't really much opportunities to use them.
 
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