Holy Roman Empire tradeoff - stay with Reform #7 or go for #8?

[HydroAC]

Playing as Austria has been an enjoyable challenge. I've learned some dynamics of the HRE that I didn't understand previously - such as passing Reform #7 makes non-HRE vassals have 100% liberty desire (making them useless). So passing and keeping Reform #7 makes non-HRE vassals a burden until you get REALLY big. That set me back, so I put the game on pause ~1590 as I thought about my options. Going with Reform #7 or Reform #8 means I no longer have any possible Rivals, so I lose free PP MPs regardless.

Looking into it, the staying with Reform #7 means that I can add conquered land to my HRE vassals (assuming there aren't distance issues) and integrate them later for free. That is really good. I can also add land to my non-HRE vassals so they can core and convert them even if they are 100% liberty desire. But who cares if they are disloyal if I have 52 loyal HRE vassals and an enormous army?

I could add Swedish, English, Leister, Brittany, and Tunisian lands to my HRE vassals while I focus on the Ottomans and Mamluks to improve my trade Venician trade node and set up colonial expansion into Asia (Expansion which will be Idea #5) . Russian lands could be added to my Novgorod vassal. I'd be able to expand quickly in all directions. Staying with Reform #7 means I keep the very helpful -10% coring cost I get as being Emperor. And with additional delay before Reform #8 my HRE vassals are improving their lands with an abundance of MPs...

The only Europeans that I'd spare are Spain and Pol/Lit, who are PU targets. They don't stand a chance against a vassal swarm.

But, passing the last Reform to form the Holy Roman Empire is very advantageous in the upcoming Ages of Absolutism. I would go from a Duchy to an Empire, so all my Germaic culture group would be accepted culture. I'd get 10 more States (15 with finishing Admin Ideas), and an Absolutism bonus. Getting my Absolutism up quickly would be much easier as an Empire, and having a high Absolutism is a huge benefit.

Any observations and recommendations from the HRE vets on the forum?

 

[Nwaij]

Having the HRE vassal swarm is a HUGE advantage compared to having the united empire.
The 2 questions remaining are:

• Why did you even have non-HRE vassals before passing th 7th reform? (Inexperience, I assume...)
• Why would you even care for your absolutism when 90% of the coring cost happens to other people (VassalSwarm) anyways?

 

[Simoleum]

I always stay reform 7 until most world is subject to Austria. Then I unite. The vassal swarm is awesome, and the subjects often develop their provinces. I had Brandenburg make Berlin 56 developtment once before I united late game.

 

[HydroAC]

Q #1: i inexperience. I had no idea that the standard technique of capturing a single province, releasing as a vassal (with the correct religion), and then using those cores for low-AE expansion would be an issue for Austria and Reform #7. I used this to eat France and now Russia. Also, before Reform #7 I was using this to have my vassals take and core land for me since most of the time I was Admin starved.
Q#2: good point. If I can expand in every direction and give those provinces to my HRE vassals then I don't really care about lower Absolutism, or I can build my Absolutism more slowly and use that for my expansion. But, will my vassals add these lands to the HRE if I make sure they are connected? I have seen HRE members add land to the HRE, but I'm not sure how consistent they are with this.

Uniting with Reform #8 too late in the game makes the high-development provinces less useful since they provide lower benefit.

I also see a time when my HRE vassals get so big they start having liberty desire issues. Is this true, or are they loyal regardless? I have no idea

I also may have issues with new provinces to the east being too far away to give to a vassal. I'll have to keep that in mind and keep my tech up to date, and hopefully the vassals will keep their diplo tech up to date..

 

[Simoleum]

I also see a time when my HRE vassals get so big they start having liberty desire issues. Is this true, or are they loyal regardless? I have no idea

Liberty desire in HRE subjects should be no problem, as long as you stay strong. What I love bout HRE is that your subjects do not get liberty desire based on the accumulated power of all subjects, only their own power vs. overlord. The most annoying thing is when you make other subjects though, because these do get the accumulative power based liberty desire, but never declare independence because you are so powerful. Integrating these is harder as you either have to develop provinces to get them down or wait until you unite the HRE

 

[HydroAC]

Looks like the advice is to stay with Reform #7. That does sound like a fun mechanic - vassal swarm and gifting land to my HRE minions.

My dev alone is 1795, so I'm reasonably big for 1590. Is that big enough to have normal vassals and Reform #7 HRE vassals? I suspect not due to the huge development of the combined HRE princes.

I have 3 non-HRE vassals: Novgorod (dev 98, 9 remaining cores in Muscovy), Picardy (dev 125, currently coring land in Tunisia), and Portugal (dev 139). I was planning on releasing Byzantium for all the free cores now that I've completed my 2nd war with the Ottomans, but maybe not if I go the Reform#7.

So perhaps I should integrate Picardy, not release Byzantium, and then pass Reform #7? Portugal will colonize for me, and Novgorad can get their cores back. I really don't want Russian territory - it serves no purpose other than weakening a competitor.

 

[checro]

But, passing the last Reform to form the Holy Roman Empire is very advantageous in the upcoming Ages of Absolutism. I would go from a Duchy to an Empire, so all my Germaic culture group would be accepted culture. I'd get 10 more States..

Uniting with Reform #8 too late in the game makes the high-development provinces less useful since they provide lower benefit.

Regarding these benefits.. I think you are forgetting you are getting income from your vassals, and ALL their land is stated, accepted culture and religion (and they are developing it)..
So it is not just 10 states more, but 10states more + 90 teritory with wrong culture, religion and with rebels for 100 states with accepted culture, religion * "vassals tax efficiency"...

 

[Simoleum]

Regarding these benefits.. I think you are forgetting you are getting income from your vassals, and ALL their land is stated, accepted culture and religion (and they are developing it)..
So it is not just 10 states more, but 10states more + 90 teritory with wrong culture, religion and with rebels for 100 states with accepted culture, religion * "vassals tax efficiency"...

I remember in my HRE game where Brandenburg etc. developed their lands like crazy (56 dev Berlin, Sachsen, etc.), and I got like minimum 300 ducats monthly just from minions IIRC. Atleast, once I passed final reform my income plunged (even with disbanding excess units and making states).

 

[HydroAC]

I hadn't thought of the income from all the HRE vassals. Considering the development and the number it could be huge.

It occurs to me that I could give Sweden to Brandenburg, making them a powerhouse with their national ideas. One or two of the princes near England with unrest and missionary national ideas could split Reform English lands between them.

Lots of opportunity stopping at Reform #7, so I appreciate the observations and recommendations.

 

[Simoleum]

I hadn't thought of the income from all the HRE vassals. Considering the development and the number it could be huge.

It occurs to me that I could give Sweden to Brandenburg, making them a powerhouse with their national ideas. One or two of the princes near England with unrest and missionary national ideas could split Reform English lands between them.

Lots of opportunity stopping at Reform #7, so I appreciate the observations and recommendations.

Your welcome! In my latest game I gave most of Scandinavia to Mecklenburg and Pomerania, but I agree Brandenburg probably is a better idea as long as they dont get any wild ideas of independence

 

[HydroAC]

I appreciate the advice! There is quite a bit of nuance to the HRE.

In 1598 my king died and I inherited Bohemia (I had PU). My rank was increased to Duchy to King, which is helpful for the extra diplomat, +5 states, and decreased focus time. The Bohemian State had 82 development - very nice.

I am attacking targets of opportunity to deny them to my opponents. I attacked Astrakhan, who had no allies. When done I found out I had Shirvan as a tributary. Shirvan had been an Astrakhan tributary. I didn't know it worked that way since I thought Tributaries only were available to eastern religious. Anyway, I now have another minion.

I'll be done integrating Picardy in 1600, so I'll enact Reform #7. Should be fun!

 

[marnues]

Note that mid/late game you may get more money from owning all that trade power in what should be the most profitable trade nodes in the game. It's been a while since I've done an HRE campaign, but at a certain point the vassal swarm armies were very slow to do their work and were terrible about dealing with attrition. I reformed around the time I was conquering India.

 

[HydroAC]

I see your point. A vassal swarm from Europe is not likely to be effective in Asia, India or Africa.

I's 1600 and just finished off the Mamluks, most of Oman, and Shamir, so I'm set up to drive to India. Integrating Picardy is almost done, so it's vassal swarm time soon!

I'm thinking about leaving the Ethiopians and Alodia alone in case I get a PU on them. You never know. There are plenty of targets in the meantime.

 

[bly08]

A vassal swarm will always be more effective than not having swarm. There's no point passing the last reform until the end of the WC.

They'll go as far as there's a land bridge, but only ones with boats will go overseas:

 

[Nwaij]

About your byzantium: Add the byzantium provinces you have to HRE. Release byzantium - it is now a HRE prince.

 

[HydroAC]

Oooh! Great idea on Byzantium!

 

[HydroAC]

No go for Byzantium. It was 150 years, so the cores expired...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Absolutism lets you take more per war so once it's unlocked get it, you can give the land you take to vassals but their absolutism generally sucks compared to what a player can do.

Vassal swam is nice militarily early but it's quickly just about having coring bots. Subjects don't pre-position units or make a useful effort to win quickly, so once you leave the immediate area of Europe their troops are too slow to help much. What makes HRE unique is that you don't have to pay to annex them later and you can skip the AE/hassle of taking the HRE land itself + add to it to gain lots of freebie vassals.

 

[HydroAC]

I've had my first wars with the HRE vassal swarm. They quickly took out Livonian Order, The Papacy (whose capital was in Provence, outside the HRE), and now an ongoing war with Sweden. The Ottos, Russsians, and Tunis are still nearby, so the vassal swarm is still useful. I gave Livonian Order lands to the Teutonic Order, whose liberty desire is zero with 87 development. So it looks like I can give my HRE vassals quite a bit of land before they go about 50%. I'll split Swedish lands (dev 288) between Brandenburg and Pomerania who have good military and national ideas

I spread the von Hapsburgs to Brittany, so looks like they get an eventual PU along with Spain and eventually Poland/Lit

Interestingly, after I took Provence and The Papacy was forced back in the HRE, The Papacy is NOT my vassal. I guess I should have had this war to force the into the HRE before I passed Reform #7.

 

[Thorum]

I once had a PU over a very big HRE Russia.
Two days after I created my vassal swarm, they tried to break free.

Never seen such a one-sided war. And I kept swarm till just before the end