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AlipheeseXV

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To be fair, an HRE in 867 would most likely be another Karling HRE which could be argued shouldn't happen. While I'm not against making it easier for the AI to form the HRE, what I would really suggest for players wanting the HRE to form earlier than 1066 would be to bring back the 936 Iron Century start. If the Karlings form it, it should be given something other than Princely Elective as historically, that HRE started with Otto.

I personally don't like "historically xy should or should not happen" arguments for a sandbox game like ck3.
On the other hand I'm totally fine if for example the 'being forced to form HRE as catholics (any christian faith can do it, as long as it has a haed of faith and is theocratic)' is removed from the 867 start date, so either player or AI can aim for 'Empire of Germania' - and as AI is unable to go further, at least the player may form it and therefor roleplay it.
 
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jtorr

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I personally don't like "historically xy should or should not happen" arguments for a sandbox game like ck3.
On the other hand I'm totally fine if for example the 'being forced to form HRE as catholics (any christian faith can do it, as long as it has a haed of faith and is theocratic)' is removed from the 867 start date, so either player or AI can aim for 'Empire of Germania' - and as AI is unable to go further, at least the player may form it and therefor roleplay it.
Most of the time, I don't really mind whether things are historical or not as every CK game becames ahistorical fairly quickly. I even like your suggestion to make Germania more possible as I'm confident the HRE decision will never be achieved by AI. I just wanted to emphasise a Karling Princely Elective HRE is just as weird and off-putting to me as the Komnenos-free non-elective Byzantium we have. Ideally I would just like the 936 start date.

I guess the issue is that CK3 wants to be both a limitless RPG sandbox and a mediaeval history simulator, and the resulting vision of the game can be confusing for people (myself included). While these two are not mutually exclusive, they're bound to contradict each other when it comes down to what should or shouldn't be in the game.
 
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Nyrael

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If you want more historical playthroughs, you are supposed to use 1066 start. 867 is designed for Pagans, Zoroastrians and chaotic stuff that is hard to play with in 1066, at cost of the rest of the world looking even less plausible than in 1066 start. For the same reason, I don't see Paradox doing anything to make 867 more historical.
 
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Furleppe

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If you want more historical playthroughs, you are supposed to use 1066 start. 867 is designed for Pagans, Zoroastrians and chaotic stuff that is hard to play with in 1066, at cost of the rest of the world looking even less plausible than in 1066 start. For the same reason, I don't see Paradox doing anything to make 867 more historical.

It's not about making the game more historical, it's more about the decision to form HRE being unreasonably difficult for clueless AI, while player is easily able to do so. Also, no one in this thread wants to railroad HRE forming in every 867 game.
 
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BarneyRubble

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AI? What AI? The game is a free for all. Every character, regardless of traits, is too busy having sex with everyone including family members. The game is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. It has such great potential.
 
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Blodhevn

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I have around 2.400 hours of playtime in ck3 and never, even before the 1.4.X updates, saw the AI form the Holy roman Empire!
I exclusively play 867 start date (I like to build up something of my own then rather have everything already formed) and ever since the 1.4.X updates, the AI can't form any new empire 99,9% of the time!
- Hispania forms by the Ummayyads? Nope, not anymore
- Francia forms by West Francia conquering enough lands? Only if the planets of the solar system line up in a sinus curve
- At least a Germania Empire forms? Nope as central europe just stays catholic
- An empire in India or in the steppe (not the mongols)? Nope, can't have such things
Aside from the 4 starting empires Khazaria, Kirgiz Khanate, Abbasids and the 'Endboss', only Empire that will form in 867 is by myself as player.
Not even late game AI with Primo manages to get enough land for an empire.
because even if the ai got enough land to make an empire, they usually dont have the right land, and wont make a custom empire either.
 

AlipheeseXV

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and wont make a custom empire either.

This is something which truly interests me:
I've seen the AI form quite some custom kingdoms. Even some abominations like a 'kingdom of Antioch with the duchies of Antioch, Edessa and... croatia!
But a custom empire... like never.
Even though the requesites with a realm size of 80 countries (and 3 kingdom titles) is less then the countries you need for example to form Persia.
Gold is not the major problem for the AI when looking at raiding tribals, especially raiding vikings.
And tribals usually have the required prestige.
So, why does the AI never form a custom empire?
 

DahndI

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Huh.. I'd sort of decided to cut back on the game a bit since I thought my 700+ hours for a 1 year old game was a bit extreme, but I guess its not that bad at all :D Back to exploring Mods!

On topic: I think the real problem with no empires forming is because the AI is abysmal at managing their realm. They simply shatter before they ever get big enough because of independence factions and forced abdications.
 
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DamonIsa

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Probably is the gold. Routinely, particularly late game, looking around? I notice most everyone is either in massively debt or flirting on being in debt. So it's not unusual for me to click around and find the major landholders who might be in line to form an empire are like -2000 Gold in debt come late game, and won't be recovering for it as their economy can't have their full army standing without losing money. But their debts and expansions means they constantly have faction rebellions going on. So their full army is basically always standing. Leading to weird situations where when I do finally take land off them I find strangely undeveloped lands being the local lords have been desperately focusing their Steward on Collect Taxes over anything else (Worsening Faction problems due to not converting cultures for example, or increasing development) with low level buildings/empty building slots because they've never been able to afford developing it.

Leads to the odd situation, late game, where I have this very advanced kingdom where every slot is filled with Tier 8 Buildings because I've been investing in my own lands and those of my vassals, a stable empire, with the vassals under me actually having gold on hand by comparison (even if I had to gift them a bunch to keep them afloat while they dealt with a faction), and the impoverished backwaters outside my borders.

At least that I've been noticing.
 

Blodhevn

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This is something which truly interests me:
I've seen the AI form quite some custom kingdoms. Even some abominations like a 'kingdom of Antioch with the duchies of Antioch, Edessa and... croatia!
But a custom empire... like never.
Even though the requesites with a realm size of 80 countries (and 3 kingdom titles) is less then the countries you need for example to form Persia.
Gold is not the major problem for the AI when looking at raiding tribals, especially raiding vikings.
And tribals usually have the required prestige.
So, why does the AI never form a custom empire?

We would have to look into the game files to truly know(but i believe they have higher requirements for forming titles compared to players, just my thoughts no evidence). but i read(maybe this thread?) that the AI only checks if they can do a major decision every 10 years. within that time they could've used up the money/prestige/piety they had which would've been enough. but i believe there might be some "extreme" requirements for the AI to make custom empires. its already expensive for the player, isnt it 2k gold?

yeah i dont like those abomination kingdoms, i wish they would lessen the requirements for custom AI kingdoms & empires but have the Enclave gamerule requirement for forming kingdoms & Empires. so there will be no Sweden,France & Moldovia as one empire. The enclave gamerule would make it so the kingdoms would have to be adjacent or within 2 water tiles (so you could do iceland,northern isles & moray as a custom kingdom etc) or for finland,bjarmaland & novgorod to become its own Empire.
 

Bannerman21

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Literally the only thing PDX has to do to fix this is insert a line of code that says something like, "Will I be able to take this decision in X years? (On resources alone, aka things that can be controlled to an extent.) If yes, keep the resources required to do so above the line required for the decision. If no, continue as per usual.

Or something like that; I don't know coding very well. Yes, I know this is very exploitable by players, but opening up a big exploit for minmaxers is better than the AI just floundering on its own. And it's not like the current system isn't exploitable. It's just exploitable in a different way.
 

DamonIsa

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Well it's less that the AI never saves money but mostly that they can't. Rare indeed is the realm that can stand its entire levies and men at arms at once without running short on the monthly income. The AI will try to resolve that by setting their steward to collect taxes in their most prosperous holding, but it's usually not anywhere near enough to make up the shortfall of some King draining 15 gold a month with their steward giving them an extra 0.8 a month. They'll also hire mercenaries anytime they're at war in a case where they're outnumbered which makes sense, but will further drain their coffers.

Now include the faction fix the last update did to make factions more dangerous for players who were easily handling them before that. The AI can't manage factions anywhere near as well as the average player so they will constantly end up in revolts where they have to hire mercenaries (and usually still won't matter), as well as the AI decision to always raise their full force for every single war (where a player might only raise a part as needed for flex and savings). Or the tendency to desperately go for any possible deal to get an alliance when they're hard pressed via marriage, often creating situations where foreign rulers will claim their holdings on inheritance because they didn't care over the short term reaction, and with the inability to fight off factions will never reach High/Absolute Crown Authority to prevent that...

And they got a hard uphill battle to ever have a positive cash flow as they're constantly locked in wars against factions or neighbors who are out of their own time of troubles.

All starts with the cash as I see it. The need to raise their entire army even if it's something like the French King calling up 9,000 men to service to put down an enemy of 300 levies just draining their coffers badly as they suck that loss for all the year or two they'll take on the war due to sieges or whatever. Meaning they can't afford buildings to increase their income. They can't afford to put their stewards on increasing development for long term growth. They're just desperate for raw money which they'll lose when they go to war against some peasant revolt a few months later, blowing their cash on a mercenary company because they're not sure if their 12 Knights, 1600 men at arms, and 6400 levies under a skilled commander can hope to defeat 8000 peasants.

For the regions effected, Varangian Adventures also do this because even though most of the adventures is levy trash the sheer troop count means they'll avoid battle. While still standing up their full army.

And once the backruptcy cycle starts? I never see the AI recover unless I go out of my way to basically pay off all their debts and give them enough gold to have 2000 in the bank while also upgrading their holdings (If they're my vassal).
 
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John2Lionheart

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In my modded game well im using 65 mods the HRE well Itally formed it almost. Empire of Italy owns france and Italy and now just needs Germany.
 

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Torredebelem

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That'd just be a band-aid fix, there really needs to be a way for the AI to have goals that it works towards. It shouldn't be beyond Paradox to make it so the king of East Francia sways the Pope.
Coding the AI is "a bit" more complex than that. Why would the AI try to sway the Pope instead his genius would be spymaster who beats the competition by x skill points? How many are x skill points, anyway? How about swaying his own wife, or a powerful vassal or a neighbour powerful ruler, or his court chaplain? These options surged in my head in the minute it took to write me this post, several other different considerations will certainly apply. And this is just for the swaying mechanism. Now consider the game as a whole and understand there are neither the human resources nor the hardware available to follow your suggestion.

Only compromise in so many instances of gameplay is to have more relaxed rules for the AI.
 

Xenrek

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That'd just be a band-aid fix, there really needs to be a way for the AI to have goals that it works towards. It shouldn't be beyond Paradox to make it so the king of East Francia sways the Pope.
Ambitions would fix a lot of stuff. That, and occasionally designating a character that's born with a "lucky/destined" buff like in ck2; give it some bonuses stats and favorable rolls in events that might get them killed, so that you can have an uprising to try and help "shake things up".

Theres tons of things that can/should be done to keep AI on-track instead of the current "they just do whatever immediately because it's off cooldown"
 
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AlipheeseXV

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We would have to look into the game files to truly know(but i believe they have higher requirements for forming titles compared to players, just my thoughts no evidence). but i read(maybe this thread?) that the AI only checks if they can do a major decision every 10 years. within that time they could've used up the money/prestige/piety they had which would've been enough. but i believe there might be some "extreme" requirements for the AI to make custom empires. its already expensive for the player, isnt it 2k gold?

yeah i dont like those abomination kingdoms, i wish they would lessen the requirements for custom AI kingdoms & empires but have the Enclave gamerule requirement for forming kingdoms & Empires. so there will be no Sweden,France & Moldovia as one empire. The enclave gamerule would make it so the kingdoms would have to be adjacent or within 2 water tiles (so you could do iceland,northern isles & moray as a custom kingdom etc) or for finland,bjarmaland & novgorod to become its own Empire.

It should be somewhere in this thread that someone mentioned, the AI checks only every 10 years if it has a hook and/or 60+ opinion with the pope for the "form HRE decision".

If this also counts for 'custom realm founding decisions', then no chance in hell the AI will ever form a custom empire.
Which is sad, cause I like to see the AI also forms something of its own besides me - which is also bigger then 2 duchies.
 
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x4077

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Sep 16, 2020
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Coding the AI is "a bit" more complex than that. Why would the AI try to sway the Pope instead his genius would be spymaster who beats the competition by x skill points? How many are x skill points, anyway? How about swaying his own wife, or a powerful vassal or a neighbour powerful ruler, or his court chaplain? These options surged in my head in the minute it took to write me this post, several other different considerations will certainly apply. And this is just for the swaying mechanism. Now consider the game as a whole and understand there are neither the human resources nor the hardware available to follow your suggestion.
As an alternative to simplify the AI coding there could be a small list of high level objectives for the AI to choose from for a character at any particular point when it doesn't have an objective, and once an objective is chosen future actions/choices are measured against that objective to see if they increase or decrease progress towards that objective and choice being made based on that logic. Of course periodically the objective would have to be evaluated for progress and whether it is worthwhile to continue towards that objective, and certain events such as dynastic deaths or war declarations would cause an immediate re-evaluation of objectives.

Only compromise in so many instances of gameplay is to have more relaxed rules for the AI.
Or a smaller scale game. Less overall characters/baronies/units/etc would also reduce the computing requirements, and possibly allow more involved game play overall.