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HochmeisterOvermind

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Hello,

So after long play I managed to create a fun scenario in which a Holy Roman Empire was form with four kingdoms under one dynasty. When the first son of the old emperor was elected I gave the last land of Bohemia to the first born and switched to play the Bohemian king. A few hundred years the dynasty I currently play as is a sub-branch, nothing related to other kings and Emperor's of the Empire, and without paying much attention my king was elected the Emperor, with a elected heir of a completely different kingdom than my own- My Emperor dies and I am forced to play as the elected Emperor with all my previous dynasties titles going on to the formal Emperor.

I find this to be... rather a massive problem. As you, being part of the Empire, would dread becoming an emperor, because the next guy in line of the election will cease all the lands of your dynasty and you are forced to play his dynasty, forsaking your old one, thus making your short reign as a Emperor a curse rather than a blessing, instead of becoming Emperor, expanding the empire and when you die, the crown passess on to who ever was elected while you continue playing heir of your dynasty rulling your lands.

If my memory serves me correctly in Crusader kings 2 that was the case: The Elected Emperor would not inherint the previous emperor's titles, and once that emperor died his titles would be inherited by his dynasty heirs while the crown would pass out to another elected Emperor, with the capital being his domains capital.

Still, I do hole paradox will fix the holy Roman empire, as of current it's rather broken when it comes to succession and how titles are passed down.
 
Ideally the demesne should be split in two a dynastic one and an imperial one. Only when a previous imperial dynasty dies without heirs, then their dynastic demesne should revert to the imperial demesne.
Only the imperial demesne should pass to a successor.
Note that the Hohenstaufen (Staufer) were the dynastic heirs of the Salier (Salian dynasty).
 
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Ideally the demesne should be split in two a dynastic one and an imperial one. Only when a previous imperial dynasty dies without heirs, then their dynastic demesne should revert to the imperial demesne.
Yet none of that applies to the player. When the AI Emperor dies and land and titles does not go to the new one who was not related to the previous one. If a player's played Emperor's heir is not nominated, the next emperor is forced upon you play with, the capital does not move, yet remains at the same exact location. For example my game: Rulled the kingdom of Bohemia, my capital was Prague. When my king became Emperor the capital was my origian capital Prague, did not inherit any titles and lands of the previous one. The next in line was a King of Pomerania of a different culture and different dynasty. Current Emperor died and I was forced to play not as his son who would have been the heir to the Bohemian titles, but as the Pomeranian king who was voted on as the new Emperor by the electors, he also got the Kingdom of Bohemia, but in return I lost my dynasty bonuses who were better than his, my culture's bonuses were better than his, the innovations where better than his and to top it all off, left me with plenty of enemies as dynasty I played for so long had strong claims on the Kingdom of Bohemia with plenty of allies to start a successful civil war.
 
Yet none of that applies to the player. When the AI Emperor dies and land and titles does not go to the new one who was not related to the previous one. If a player's played Emperor's heir is not nominated, the next emperor is forced upon you play with, the capital does not move, yet remains at the same exact location. For example my game: Rulled the kingdom of Bohemia, my capital was Prague. When my king became Emperor the capital was my origian capital Prague, did not inherit any titles and lands of the previous one. The next in line was a King of Pomerania of a different culture and different dynasty. Current Emperor died and I was forced to play not as his son who would have been the heir to the Bohemian titles, but as the Pomeranian king who was voted on as the new Emperor by the electors, he also got the Kingdom of Bohemia, but in return I lost my dynasty bonuses who were better than his, my culture's bonuses were better than his, the innovations where better than his and to top it all off, left me with plenty of enemies as dynasty I played for so long had strong claims on the Kingdom of Bohemia with plenty of allies to start a successful civil war.
That... doesn't sound right.
CKIII is dynastic, you play as a dynasty, not a title. If the ruler of Pomerania was of a different dynasty (not house, but dynasty), then you would have gotten a game over or moved to an heir who was of your dynasty.
And IIRC, elective succession only applies to the title that the law is added to. Meaning the HRE should be the only title under Princely Elective. Every other title should have been under some form of partition, primogeniture (late-game), Seniority (possible if you were Czech or mid-game), or under their own forms of elective.

So what should have happened is you should have had a player heir of your dynasty who received your other titles (or part of them via partition) while the non-Dynastic Primary Heir only received the HRE via election. If I'm not mistaken, you would still be King of Bohemia as a player character of your dynasty (unless you had multiple kingdoms and another heir inherited Bohemia) while the King of Pomerania would be the ruler of the HRE.

Either the King of Pomerania was part of your Dynasty, but not your House and that's why you switched, you had some mod problems, or there was just a bug. You should never switch to a new dynasty and lower level titles should be by regular inheritance rather than elective inheritance, except when there's multiple top-tier titles with elective succession, in which case weird stuff and exploits can happen.
 
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It's tricky, because you wouldn't want a situation where you are emperor with no kids, a distant member of your dynasty is elected to succeed you, but you get a game-over or continue playing as some random count who happens to be your agnate.

It seems like a good compromise would be to have an option like when you win a crusade - you get offered the choice to play as the newly elected emperor (assuming its your dynasty), or your normal heir.

Of course, there are also all sorts of issues with deciding which land belongs to the imperial title and which belongs to the individual (and should therefore be inherited rather than passed through election). Same with assigning vassals, and handling newly conquered territory. It's a real mess, and I usually avoid playing in the HRE just so I don't have to deal with it.
 
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That... doesn't sound right.
CKIII is dynastic, you play as a dynasty, not a title. If the ruler of Pomerania was of a different dynasty (not house, but dynasty), then you would have gotten a game over or moved to an heir who was of your dynasty.
And IIRC, elective succession only applies to the title that the law is added to. Meaning the HRE should be the only title under Princely Elective. Every other title should have been under some form of partition, primogeniture (late-game), Seniority (possible if you were Czech or mid-game), or under their own forms of elective.

So what should have happened is you should have had a player heir of your dynasty who received your other titles (or part of them via partition) while the non-Dynastic Primary Heir only received the HRE via election. If I'm not mistaken, you would still be King of Bohemia as a player character of your dynasty (unless you had multiple kingdoms and another heir inherited Bohemia) while the King of Pomerania would be the ruler of the HRE.

Either the King of Pomerania was part of your Dynasty, but not your House and that's why you switched, you had some mod problems, or there was just a bug. You should never switch to a new dynasty and lower level titles should be by regular inheritance rather than elective inheritance, except when there's multiple top-tier titles with elective succession, in which case weird stuff and exploits can happen.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. Being pushed into playing a new dynasty goes against the whole premise of the game.
 
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That’s exactly what I was thinking. Being pushed into playing a new dynasty goes against the whole premise of the game.
Indeed. In contrast the way CK II handled this wasn’t flawless either, but better than this. A know issue there was losing lands outside your highest de jure title. In this example your heir would have inherited the kingdom of Bohemia (and the lands within it), but other counties in Frisia, Lotharingia etc. also stood the risk to be lost, but at least you ended playing your dynastic heir.
 
My personal opinion: I agree that there should be a clearer distinction between the titles that belong to the crown of the HRE and the titles that belong to the family of the current emperor.

I think the best system would be something like the following:
-> The newly elected emperor gets a single duchy and all the counties in it. Ideally, this would be the de jure capital of the HRE (County of Aachen and duchy of Jülich), but if you don't personally hold that you should be able to designate another Duchy as the "empire capital" that gets inherited by the new emperor.
-> All the other titles you hold get distributed according to your realm inheritance laws (or their own title succession laws) normally.
-> If the new emperor and your realm succession heir are two different characters that are both of your dynasty, you get to choose who you want to continue playing as.
 
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My personal opinion: I agree that there should be a clearer distinction between the titles that belong to the crown of the HRE and the titles that belong to the family of the current emperor.

I think the best system would be something like the following:
-> The newly elected emperor gets a single duchy and all the counties in it. Ideally, this would be the de jure capital of the HRE (County of Aachen and duchy of Jülich), but if you don't personally hold that you should be able to designate another Duchy as the "empire capital" that gets inherited by the new emperor.
-> All the other titles you hold get distributed according to your realm inheritance laws (or their own title succession laws) normally.
-> If the new emperor and your realm succession heir are two different characters that are both of your dynasty, you get to choose who you want to continue playing as.
An imperial demesne including Aachen, but probably also Frankfurt am Main, is not a bad idea.
However redistributing the other titles IMHO is. It would make being elected Emperor a burden, which it wasn’t. Every Emperor had a Hausmacht (dynastic powerbase).
I’d prefer places like Aachen being flagged as Imperial, the rest should be inherited dynastically.
 
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An imperial demesne including Aachen, but probably also Frankfurt am Main, is not a bad idea.
However redistributing the other titles IMHO is. It would make being elected Emperor a burden, which it wasn’t. Every Emperor had a Hausmacht (dynastic powerbase).
I’d prefer places like Aachen being flagged as Imperial, the rest should be inherited dynastically.

I agree that being elected emperor should not be a burden and that everything outside of the "imperial demesne" around Aachen should be inherited dynastically.