Do the Templars and others keep fighting for the Catholic heresy after this Byzantine event? They don't seem to become available to the Orthodox religion.
Holy Orders after end of Great schism?
- Thread starter darviathar
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
It's actually a good thing, IMO. As a result of the new religious differences, most countries which were previously Catholic go through internal struggles where the majority-Orthodox face the Holy Ordered Catholics. In my Byzantine game, all kingdoms flipped initially... but after a few decades of war, the catholics had restored all kingdoms save the Iberians (lost to Muslims), the HRE, Norway and Sweden (three orthodox; Poland may have been Orthodox too then got absorbed by recatholicised Denmark)
I'd rather have the leaders of these holy orders make that decision themselves, so that the orders too get split. Maybe Teutons go Ortho whilst Templar and Hospitaliers go Catho, or something like that. The mending of the great schism isn't some sort of challenge the Cath have to face, it's something they should embrace. And make the orders dynamic like that as well. Maybe make it dependent on their home province or just leader religion. (But for Gods(literally) sake don't let them go Muslim.
Does not really make sense though, because holy orders such as those is not compatable with orthodoxy. monks (and all clergy) are banned from the military in the holy canons. (the catholics just ignored them)
Were the Templar Knights, Hospitaliers etc really ordained or tonsured, though? From the looks of it, the people doing the actual fighting were laymen, but there were chaplains in the order as well.
I mean, wouldn't a Templar Chaplain be in a similar position to, say, an Orthodox Army Chaplain?
Oh... Shows how much I know about religion
This is the Seventh Canon of the Council of Chalcedon (Fourth Ecumenical Council):
"We have decreed that those who have once been enrolled among the clergy, or have been made monks, shall accept neither a military charge nor any secular dignity; and if they shall presume to do so and not repent in such wise as to turn again to that which they had first chosen for the love of God, they shall be anathematized."
No, the knights were not ordained to the priesthood (and the "chaplains" of the orders were not allowed to fight). Being tonsured though is a tricky question. Many of the orders were run by monastic "rules". (for instance taking vows of poverty and the like).
There can be no doubt of course that they were ecclesiastical at least, as they were allowed to build their own churches and cemeteries.
By the way, about having their own churches and cemeteries, that was very profitable for the order as they did not have to give up the tithes to the local bishop or the Pope. They were particularly useful when the land they were in were under interdict, because the only place you could get communion or to get buried were the churches and cemeteries of the orders (because they were not part of the land of the King/Noble under interdict as they were subject to the Pope and the normal churches were thus not allowed to do anything until the interdict was lifted) People would flood to Order churches and it would this put many more tithes into the coffers of the Order! This of course made the local bishops loathe them!
But anyway, back to what was being talked about. For the Knights Templar, in the Papal Bull Omne Datum Optimum (which granted endorsement for the Knights Templar), Pope Innocent II four times speaks of the brothers of the order as having an ecclesiastical habit. Here is an excerpt from it, and he says also another very important thing which is relevant to the discussion:
"ideoque fraters vestros, semel devotos atque in sacro collegio receptos, post factam in vestra militia professionem, et habitum religionis assumptum, revertendi ad seculum nullam habere precipimus facultatem"
"Therefore we deny your once brothers, once dedicated and received into the holy order, any ability to return to secular life after making profession of your knighthood and assuming the religious habit"
This is important because "secular", when speaking about the church, means "not bound by the vows of a monastic order". That makes it so these knights are seen as bound by the vows of a monastic order. (This means either the Knights Templar is seen as a monastic order, or that the knights take the vows of a monastic order)
So, with just this evidence it is clear that the line between monk and knight has been very blurred for these orders. This alone is not acceptable to Orthodox practice, who already see these orders as "unholy" and foreign to Orthodox teaching, so I see no reason why the Orthodox would change their tradition if the schism was mended on the terms of the Orthodox. Besides, these orders were legitimized with the blessing of the Roman Catholic Pope (a heretic according to the Orthodox). That alone would make it so these orders are already illegitimate.
But of course I might be wrong ;P
I am not sure what you mean?
On the other hand, the orthodox would likely attempt to disband the orders and seize their assets, which would just make them knights resist "unification" all the more fiercely.
I'm guessing he most likely means that a person who does not hold a weapon on principle can still die by them.
I'm guessing he most likely means that a person who does not hold a weapon on principle can still die by them.
I would have assumed that a militant fanatical order would be probably one of the most resistant parts of a society to change, especially one imposed from outside of their religious group.
I like the way it is now. It makes more sense, historically and religiously, and it helps make the post-Schism game more interesting. As Avernite pointed out, without Roman/Byzantine intervention, the Catholics have a bit of an edge thanks to the holy orders. But of course, those that have accepted the new order also have the Romans in their corner. Since the end of the schism is much more likely to happen with a human player at the helm, it gives the player something to do with their new empire: interfering in the European holy wars between Catholic and Orthodox realms. My favorite is to intervene in Holy Roman Empire civil/religious wars.
Fairly certain this is a reference to the famous Stalin line.
As the soon-to-be victorious allies were discussing the post-war settlement, Churchill admonished Stalin to keep the views of the Pope in mind, to which Stalin famously replied: "And how many divisions doe the Pope of Rome have?"