Holy Order Power

[Carmichael]

Hi all, I have a question about the size of the Holy Order armies in general.

What I would like to know is what is determining the size of the troop of any Holy Order. I searched a bit in the game files and found the static_modifier file which seams to determine it but when i try creating a new Holy Order, I found myself with a very different unit in size despite having the same stats on the paper.

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[knppel]

If you want to mod in a new Holy Order, you probably best ask in the Mod subforum.
The dfault size of Holy Orders is somewhat 7000ish (the Christian Holy Orders when founded from new by the pope after the first crusade)

 

[Carmichael]

Yes that's what I thought too but when I created it, it was only constituted of 3600~ men, which makes me wonder if their is other factors: Religious Authority? Martial of the Headmaster?

 

[Battle bunny]

I think moral authority and elapsed time are the two main factors.

 

[Carmichael]

En effet, cela a l'air d'être le cas, merci

Sinon vous savez si le fait que l'Ordre possède des terres donne un bonus?

 

[Ritzzz]

Yes that's what I thought too but when I created it, it was only constituted of 3600~ men, which makes me wonder if their is other factors: Religious Authority? Martial of the Headmaster?

Probably the previous hirer of the order's troops put them through a combination of high attrition and losing battles, resulting in a large dip in the troops' manpower. And since the order's troops take time to re-supply, they probably were not given enough to re-supply to max numbers before you hired them again.

 

[Carmichael]

Nah Ritz I just made them poped via the event command. And by the way I am so tired that I wrote in french =_= I wanted to ask: Is the fact that an Order own lands affect the size of its troops?

 

[Kimberly]

Nah Ritz I just made them poped via the event command. And by the way I am so tired that I wrote in french =_= I wanted to ask: Is the fact that an Order own lands affect the size of its troops?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't make a difference--their special, hirable stack is separate from any levies they might raise. It plays by different rules. For example, if you declare war on a landed Holy Order as a Catholic, they can defend against you with levies, but not with their stack. (Because the stack doesn't fight people of the same religion.)

 

[Ritzzz]

Nah Ritz I just made them poped via the event command. And by the way I am so tired that I wrote in french =_= I wanted to ask: Is the fact that an Order own lands affect the size of its troops?

The order holdings only affect the order's levy size when someone DOWs on their holdings. You are talking about the order mercenary unit that you hire with piety right?

 

[NewbieOne]

Probably the previous hirer of the order's troops put them through a combination of high attrition and losing battles, resulting in a large dip in the troops' manpower. And since the order's troops take time to re-supply, they probably were not given enough to re-supply to max numbers before you hired them again.

They tend to reach 7700 and stop there but I've seen odd numbers remaining with some permanence. Between 7500-7700 has been pretty constant (and maybe a little over 7700 but not 7800).

Incidentally, I'd love to see smaller orders with proportionally reduced requirements and benefits, especially for Iberia (Calatrava, Avis etc.).

 

[vitek69]

Hmm in my last game in the Middle East I relied heavily on the Holy Orders and I know that at one point the maximum strength of both the Hospitallier and Templars was well below 7700; it was like 6800-ish. I had no idea before that their max troop number can actually change

 

[NewbieOne]

Hmm in my last game in the Middle East I relied heavily on the Holy Orders and I know that at one point the maximum strength of both the Hospitallier and Templars was well below 7700; it was like 6800-ish. I had no idea before that their max troop number can actually change

You got my word on plenty of instance above 7000, with a tendency towards >7500. Like other guys said, perhaps moral authority of the religion has something to do with that.

 

[Carmichael]

From what i have seen, all Holy Order troops are composed the following way:
- 600 Heavy Infantry
- 300 Knights
- 200 Archers
- Each stack are multiplied by 7 (In the text it is "Levy size = 6", which means you must add 6 times the total number of troops)
- Finally, the total of troops is multiplied by the Moral Authority of the Church.

In brief, if the Moral Authority of the Church is of 100 (Which is most of the time the case due to the Holy War storm in the North and variably in Hispania) you have 1100 troops multiplied by 7, multiplied by 100%, which gives 7700 troops.

I personally rebuilt the Jomsviking by giving them the following troops:
- Heavy Infantry: 1200
- Knights: 30 (I hesitate to remove them)
- Archers: 200
- Navy: 15
Which gives, if I make them pop at game start: (1445*7)*50% (Moral authority of all Pagans)= 5057 troops.

So its normal the troops cap at 7700 but it is a bit disappointing that the feudal levies they obtain via their castle does not stack :s
Personally I think 7700 is too much when they appear, the Orders weren't these doomstacks from the start, it would be good to have a more progressive evolution, after all, at the battle of Saule in 1236, the Christians only aligned 3000 troops, most of them allies of the Livonian Order.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

I agree with that. The orders should be divided by two at least. However, due to extreme inflation of levies and retinues in latest DLCs I think the size of the orders could remain. All levies, retinues and Orders should be reduced by 2-4.

BTW, does Oredr Navy also grow?

 

[vitek69]

From what i have seen, all Holy Order troops are composed the following way:
- 600 Heavy Infantry
- 300 Knights
- 200 Archers
- Each stack are multiplied by 7 (In the text it is "Levy size = 6", which means you must add 6 times the total number of troops)
- Finally, the total of troops is multiplied by the Moral Authority of the Church.

In brief, if the Moral Authority of the Church is of 100 (Which is most of the time the case due to the Holy War storm in the North and variably in Hispania) you have 1100 troops multiplied by 7, multiplied by 100%, which gives 7700 troops.
(...)

That explains a lot:] Thank you wise man!