Holy lands +

[Riddermark]

Guess whos back :rofl: Anyway, as i understand almost no new proposals go in now as the work is being finalised but this should be discussed imho if not already.

I just read a book about the crusades through arab eyes and many thoughts arouse in my mind

First of all what is mentioned in both ours and theirs sources is that the 1st crusade was a massacre. The cities which were taken was left with no muslim population, this stands for Jerusalem with full power - not a single muslim left. So I dont see why in 1187 the province is still muslim ?
This should work for the other major citadels too.. something similar is there in the cultur mod right?

next, which is rather ck2 material i think, the arabs didnt know what hit em, they just knew it was from the west. Im thinking doesnt this mean that until the 1300s when the ottomans decide to take up on Europe the arabs shouldnt be able to attack europe? or maybe only through spain and/or byzantine territories. I mean they didnt even want to do attack europe not even thought of this. (yes i know discussed before many times)

can i ask whether the notorious multiple kingdom title disrupt events will find their way into 1.05 ?

 

[SecondReich]

I don't think they should. They are unfair. The game doesn't need to punish you for doing well.

The badboy system is there to do that.

The "distance disruption" events are enough to piss you off anyway.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I don't think they should. They are unfair. The game doesn't need to punish you for doing well.

The badboy system is there to do that.

The "distance disruption" events are enough to piss you off anyway.

I for sure hope they make such events, makes the game more interesting and challenging.

Also it will help to disrupt the AI-superpower like the Kingdom of Germany/Italy/Burgundy

 

[Justinian_A]

I for sure hope they make such events, makes the game more interesting and challenging.

Also it will help to disrupt the AI-superpower like the Kingdom of Germany/Italy/Burgundy

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[unmerged(3746)]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I wonder how many times it needs to be said that Germany should never have been given the Italy title when the king titles working as they do with this game engine. Engineering ridiculous out-of-the-way fixes for something that should just be deleted from the game file is so silly and game-damaging and frustrating.

 

[Yakman]

I wonder how many times it needs to be said that Germany should never have been given the Italy title when the king titles working as they do with this game engine. Engineering ridiculous out-of-the-way fixes for something that should just be deleted from the game file is so silly and game-damaging and frustrating.

But Germany can just claim Italy, considering it owns enough provinces to do so. Would you prefer eliminating the title altogether?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

In my own mod I have removed the titles king of Italy and Burgundy from the King of Germany in 1066.

In the one game I have started so far after changing this. The King of Germany didn't create the titles (he doesn't have a province in his demesne that are part of it). And the Duchies of Milano, Toscane, Provence and a number of counties in Switzerland broke away succesfully and became independent.

But those events to break up big kingdoms should really effect human players to, it should be hard having say 5 kingtitles and 3 sons. Historically a king would have given all his sons a kingtitle, but since the game doesn't force you to do that, it doesn't give any benefit, most gamers keep all the kingtitles for 1 person.

 

[eknarx]

@Riddermark
which book did you read about the crusades from arab pov?

@multiple king title disrupting events
did anybody already provide such events in modded form?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

@multiple king title disrupting events
did anybody already provide such events in modded form?

No, not that I know. Alltough people are working on them (MrT/Byakhiam)

 

[SecondReich]

Its just, these sort of events are artificial.

When Napoleon formed an Empire did all the sudden he have widespread revolts and unexplainable Civil wars? Did Hitler have a massive uprising of people in Germany to topple his regime for no apparent reason?

No.

If the game can't beat you through straight out military actions, then there shouldn't be these events which screw you over and add no fun.

I am not saying the game has to be easy as pie, just a more fun way of losing than civil wars for no reason.

 

[Yakman]

In my own mod I have removed the titles king of Italy and Burgundy from the King of Germany in 1066.

In the one game I have started so far after changing this. The King of Germany didn't create the titles (he doesn't have a province in his demesne that are part of it). And the Duchies of Milano, Toscane, Provence and a number of counties in Switzerland broke away succesfully and became independent.

But those events to break up big kingdoms should really effect human players to, it should be hard having say 5 kingtitles and 3 sons. Historically a king would have given all his sons a kingtitle, but since the game doesn't force you to do that, it doesn't give any benefit, most gamers keep all the kingtitles for 1 person.

The new betas don't require him to have a demesne province in those areas to create the king title. All he needs is sufficient vassal provinces to become King.

 

[Riddermark]

@Riddermark
which book did you read about the crusades from arab pov?

here - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805208984?v=glance

Really fascinating book and a must read even if you doubt its credibility.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

The new betas don't require him to have a demesne province in those areas to create the king title. All he needs is sufficient vassal provinces to become King.

Yes it does, the AI still needs to own at least one province in the title he wants to create, the human player can create all titles even if all the land is held by his vassals.

f.e. you never see the King of England create the title duke of Yorkearly in the game.

Or when the AI German king overruns the tribe of Mecklemburg but the lands are all taken by his vassals he doesn't create the title.

I also never see the AI King of Germany create the kingtitle of Bohemia or Duchy of Luxemburg or Duchy of Schwyz or Duchy of Tirol

 

[unmerged(46403)]

A human king could create the title, however, although the AI King also *can*, the AI is programmed to only create titles if it has at least one province in their demesne. The real problem is not multiple King titles but AI relams pledging allegiance to their "natural liege" without reason. If you are independant then you should not realistically pledge allegiance to anyone unless you have need of their protection (this could be the same kind of "protection" the Mafia offers, hence why there should options to forceibly vassalise duchies, counties and even kingdoms).

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

A human king could create the title, however, although the AI King also *can*, the AI is programmed to only create titles if it has at least one province in their demesne. The real problem is not multiple King titles but AI relams pledging allegiance to their "natural liege" without reason. If you are independant then you should not realistically pledge allegiance to anyone unless you have need of their protection (this could be the same kind of "protection" the Mafia offers, hence why there should options to forceibly vassalise duchies, counties and even kingdoms).

The AI can only create titles if it has in his demesne a province that is part of that uncreated title, so he can't create those titles. So they didn't program him to not create those titles, they just made it impossible to do for the AI, just like it was impossible for a human player in previous patches to create titles that weren't part of his demesne, later it was reprogrammed so that human players can also create titles if all the lands are held by vassals, this was in patch 1.02 or 1.03 I think.

Also having vassals pledge allegiance to their natural liege is historical and correct and much better then it was when AI kingdoms all fell apart and never resurrected, also there weren't many independent duchies and counties in CK era. At least I don't know about a major duchy or county that revolted and became completely independent after that.

The nasty events for multiple titles (so not just kingtitles but also duchy titles) should mostly effect humanplayers, so the game is challenging when you hold say more then 5 titles of the same tier.

 

[unmerged(46403)]

Duchies and counties acted sometimes very independantly when they were on borders between major kingdoms because they could play one against the other, but otherwise they rarely were independant because they were typically weaker. AI Realms that break up would not stay apart for long as the King ought to attack the traitors and crush them. If he cannot do so then it is normal for the realm to remain fragmented until someone is capable of conquering it and reforming the King-title, or taking it off a 'King' unable to enforce his power. Perhaps the AI should be more active in attempting to reform realms that have collapsed. Some independant duchies have been made Kingdom tier in CK.

 

[unmerged(42196)]

here - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805208984?v=glance

Really fascinating book and a must read even if you doubt its credibility.

Excellent book. For more on the crusades, I recommend Steven Runciman's trilogy of the crusades, especially volume 2 "The Kingdom of Jerusalem". Pure entertainment.

 

[unmerged(47151)]

First of all what is mentioned in both ours and theirs sources is that the 1st crusade was a massacre. The cities which were taken was left with no muslim population, this stands for Jerusalem with full power - not a single muslim left. So I dont see why in 1187 the province is still muslim ?
This should work for the other major citadels too.. something similar is there in the cultur mod right?

Beacause the Crusaders never made a concerted attempt to eradicate Islam from the holy lands, they massacred the Muslim population of Jerusalem and maybe a few other cities but cities in the middle ages didn't contain anything like the majority of the population, and I know that a lot of the time the Crusaders were perfectly happy to leave the muslims alone, so long as they paid their taxes and didn't do anything insurrectionary, and this even includes the muslim aristocrats aswell.

 

[qvcatullus]

I personally find that a few problems stem from the fact that diplomatic proposals in the game are completely free. It neither costs money nor 'diplomats'/DI to make them, which is very nice in a way, but does lead to some AI spamming.
Here, I feel that the problem of pledging fealty out of the blue (which does cause problems in-game, even if it fixes others) could be mitigated somewhat if there were some small cost to proposals to prevent AI AND player spam. If it cost something to repeatedly request that a state declare fealty to me, I wouldn't keep spamming on the duke who isn't going to join; the AI should shy away from it as well. At the same time, it perhaps should be more likely that they will accept a vassalization to their natural liege. In that way, reconstructing kingdoms will occur actively as a diplomatic effort with some cost by the liege (and good diplo rulers should be better at it), rather than just accidentally and regardless of the situation. If it worked this way, we could drop the randomly swearing fealty bit, and instead encourage the liege AI to seek out vassals actively.

But I may be completely wrong.

 

[unmerged(47151)]

qvcattelus, this is exactly what happens, kingdoms do restructure themselves over time.