Holland in MP

unmerged(15967) · Jul 5, 2003

I don't think the Netherlands should form automatically. They should have a good chance IF the revolts are happening (i. e. no super-innovative owner) and the owner of the provinces is in trouble, or if the owner wants to release them, otherwise they shouldn't. Editing the rr to 80% or so would be the best solution I think.

kurtbrian · Jul 5, 2003

forbid spain to annex Holland is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. make them honour their truces maybe(

) but not the other part.

RedPhoenix · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by kurtbrian
forbid spain to annex Holland is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. make them honour their truces maybe() but not the other part.

dont think anyone was fobidding that, spain can annex holland if she wants after they are released

unmerged(10146) · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by ForzaA
just my two cents

4 possible starts

1) 1568, but at this time there wasn't THAT much of a country yet.. better simulated with the RR taxpenalty as it is now

2) 1575, Union of Utrecht.. Dutch really getting organised, situation of war should erupt ASAP (Dutch breaking vassalisation + DoW)

3) early 17th century| 12 year truce (1608) , the spanish and Dutch agreed to a truce, mainly because the Spanish got their @$$ handed on a plate in their own spanish harbors, with the Spanish accepting (though temporarily) the Dutch suzerainity over the northern territories (EU2: Holland, Friesen, large parts of Gelre, parts of Zeeland)

4) 1648, the Peace of Westphalia (thats the English name IIRC) Spain really recognized dutch independence.

now, for gameplay purposes, i suggest setting the Dutch free somewhere between 2 and 3, with some fighting ofcourse, and perhaps as an additional rule forbid spain to either
- Annex the Netherlands, or
- to DoW them when they have only one European province

it is ofcourse a bit fabricated, but this seems like the best solution to me.. but something needs to ballance the rediculous amount of mercenaries one is able to recruit in the Netherlands as Spain.

There are some events scheduled for 1580, and if you create Netherlands after that and reload than you usually get a mess, so I would say 1575 - Union of Utrecht - is agood date to release Netherlands.
Since there has to be some editiong, the best is to edit the war against Spain as well. And perhaps Zeeland should be returned to Spain by edit. With the revolt risk returned, naturally.

unmerged(10146) · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
I don't think the Netherlands should form automatically. They should have a good chance IF the revolts are happening (i. e. no super-innovative owner) and the owner of the provinces is in trouble, or if the owner wants to release them, otherwise they shouldn't. Editing the rr to 80% or so would be the best solution I think.

It doesn't have to be Netherlands. But if there is agreement that there will be Netherlands, than there should also be an agreement how, when and with which resources Netherlands will be formed. As proven in Machiavelli

kurtbrian · Jul 5, 2003

Originally posted by RedPhoenix
dont think anyone was fobidding that, spain can annex holland if she wants after they are released

I was responding to:

Originally posted by ForzaA
4) 1648, the Peace of Westphalia (thats the English name IIRC) Spain really recognized dutch independence.

now, for gameplay purposes, i suggest setting the Dutch free somewhere between 2 and 3, with some fighting ofcourse, and perhaps as an additional rule forbid spain to either
- Annex the Netherlands, or
- to DoW them when they have only one European province

it is ofcourse a bit fabricated, but this seems like the best solution to me.. but something needs to ballance the rediculous amount of mercenaries one is able to recruit in the Netherlands as Spain.

ForzaA · Jul 5, 2003

well, *something* needs to balance the amount of troops spain can recruit through mercenaries.. an agreement like "spain recruits only one merc company (max) a year in the Netherlands" would be good too (if they can ship enough troops over, the Netherlands ARE dead meat, and they would've been IRL too)

unmerged(3571) · Jul 6, 2003

Originally posted by TheArchduke
Only if Spain doesn´t fight them but if Spain only raises a finger they can´t come into existance..

Not true at all. France can "encourage" their existance, especially if England helps too.

Any potential Dutch players has to be at least a competent diplomat.

Personally I am against them getting any starting bonuses, and I am playing them in one game now. The Dutch can do quite well by playing historical enemies against each other if they have some help.

Wyvern · Jul 7, 2003

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
I don't think the Netherlands should form automatically. They should have a good chance IF the revolts are happening (i. e. no super-innovative owner) and the owner of the provinces is in trouble, or if the owner wants to release them, otherwise they shouldn't. Editing the rr to 80% or so would be the best solution I think.

I prefer this as a more simpler solution. Well perhaps 80% is a little high, but certainly a very high revolt risk added so it better simulates the number of rebels generated under the old rebel system.

VinceV · Jul 17, 2003

But they need some sort of starting package, at least some cash to promote their bailiffs to TC's, and some money to start to build an army.

It would be a shame to have them never arrive, since they are so rich in events and leaders and are a somewhat unique country type: a trading and possible naval superpower, but a rather small power in terms of army and country size.

unmerged(15967) · Jul 17, 2003

Originally posted by VinceV
But they need some sort of starting package, at least some cash to promote their bailiffs to TC's, and some money to start to build an army.

It would be a shame to have them never arrive, since they are so rich in events and leaders and are a somewhat unique country type: a trading and possible naval superpower, but a rather small power in terms of army and country size.

Just like Portugal, not unique.

BiB · Jul 17, 2003

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
Just like Portugal, not unique.

But then Portugal does get 1000 ducats, an army and a navy at teh start, no?

unmerged(15967) · Jul 17, 2003

Originally posted by BiB
But then Portugal does get 1000 ducats, an army and a navy at teh start, no?

I didn't comment on the starting package.

BiB · Jul 17, 2003

Originally posted by Freiherr vStein
I didn't comment on the starting package.

I did

Prince Eugene · Jul 17, 2003

I hope Mowers finds this thread soon.. I've always used his rules for Holland creation.

unmerged(1104) · Jul 17, 2003

Bah, every country gets a starting package (in 1419 or 1492)
the Netherlands shouldn't be any different if they form as a Nation in MP (human controlled.)

The save Table/Surinam/Curacao/Jakarta crowd I don't agree with, as the country may not even form, etc etc blah blah

Give 'em some ducats, a good Navy, small Army, and your best regards.

unmerged(3571) · Jul 18, 2003

I'm still not sure it is necessary. Netherlands is such a good future ally that they can easily bargain for some monetary assistance in the form of a long term loan or just gifts for goodwill.

France usually has a lot to gain from the Netherlands doing well, and if France doesn't help them certainly one of France's enemies should.

Tax collectors can easily be obtained with an early loan. Sure, it's a bit of a struggle at first, but that's part of the fun, and they are certain to be a significant power in the 1600s regardless.

Sure, no army and 0 cash is a bit of a hard start, so I guess some sort of starting package is ok, but certainly nothing like 1000d. The Dutch can quickly make money by sending out a few traders to some of the more lucrative CoTs. With their great ADMIN rating and reform religion they are unlikely to be competed out very often until they establish a significant presence.

Peter Ebbesen · Jul 18, 2003

Originally posted by Habsburg
Bah, every country gets a starting package (in 1419 or 1492)
the Netherlands shouldn't be any different if they form as a Nation in MP (human controlled.)

They do get a starting package.... Spanish tech, which is usually the world's best at the time. Thus from the very beginning they have armies and navies better than many European majors, their trade and infrastructure efficiencies are incredibly high, and they do not suffer from inflation.

If that isn't one hell of a good starting package, I do not know what is

I always support the Netherlands getting a bit of cash and a starting army and navy but they do not really need it - they can send out their merchants competing away just about anybody and mint some coin to pay for it just like everybody else.

BiB · Jul 18, 2003

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
They do get a starting package.... Spanish tech, which is usually the world's best at the time. Thus from the very beginning they have armies and navies better than many European majors, their trade and infrastructure efficiencies are incredibly high, and they do not suffer from inflation.

If that isn't one hell of a good starting package, I do not know what is

I always support the Netherlands getting a bit of cash and a starting army and navy but they do not really need it - they can send out their merchants competing away just about anybody and mint some coin to pay for it just like everybody else.

Not to mention maps. Holland gets shitloads of explorers, none of which they actually need

Smirfy · Jul 18, 2003

As Ive said before Spain should not be allowed to hire mercenaries in Flanders. No land link to capital no mercenaries!

Holland in MP

Lt. General

Older than dirt

Lt. General

Admiral

Admiral

Older than dirt

Thalassic QA

Devil incarnate

In the lands of Calradia

Captain

Lt. General

Comité du Salut Public

Lt. General

Comité du Salut Public

Field Marshal

Erzherzog von Osterreich

Devil incarnate

the Conqueror

Comité du Salut Public

We're not Brazil