Holland in MP

[TheArchduke]

In the last few games I watched, played and read about there is one issue. How should the emergence of Holland be simulated and handled. I hope everyone agrees that they are an addition to everyone´s game.

As with the more than 8 player patch Holland (Apart from New World latecomers who most of the times find themself in a nice situation.) is the only player-controlled country that is significant but not included in the normal MP start of 1492.

Under 1.05 you couldn´t suppress the dutch revolts if you as Spain were dragged in any war as Rebels emerged every two months. Now holding onto them in 1.07 is quite easy. Also should they get a start bonus or shouldn´t they? Is it necessary that other nations try to leave colonization places open?
As the two best places Table, Jakarta mostly end up foreign occupied.

How you best bring them into the game without too much divine (GM) intervention by pre-game rules?

 

[RedPhoenix]

I think if they do get free, bring em in sure... but if they don't... well tough shit none should be forced to release holland by out of game means.


However I do think that the starting pack is very good to give them, as they are otherwise totally unable to reach their historical potential.


But really I think a starting pack for nearly any nation starting late is needed, unless the nation is exceedinly rich like china etc.

 

[BiB]

Around 1580 Holland or so should be let to rebel and pop into existence. They will get 4 provinces usually. Edit in an army, a navy and some money (reasonable amounts) and u have the historical situation. That's all that's needed, that is where the Dutch started historically. Anything more is just ahistorical Dutchie lobbying.

 

[juv95hrn]

How about implementing an option at startup, kind of like the COT editor, with only 2 choices.
1. Historical creation 1.07 according to Red
2. Automatic creation (for MP if wished for) à la BiB.

???

 

[Elijah]

What about when the austrians decide to keep the lowlands and maintain the high innovative needed to avoid revolts? Is this tactic then disallowed?

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by Elijah
What about when the austrians decide to keep the lowlands and maintain the high innovative needed to avoid revolts? Is this tactic then disallowed?

I'm assuming games where RP and historical plausibility have at least some kind of place. If anything goes in a game u hardly need special rules for Holland.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by BiB
Around 1580 Holland or so should be let to rebel and pop into existence. They will get 4 provinces usually. Edit in an army, a navy and some money (reasonable amounts) and u have the historical situation. That's all that's needed, that is where the Dutch started historically. Anything more is just ahistorical Dutchie lobbying.

Yeah, right, we all saw how that nicely 'works'

To have Holland formed in that way one thing is absolutely needed: VERY bad player for Spain. If that condition is not met, it doesnt matter who plays France or England or Denmark...

 

[TheArchduke]

The revolt risk is bugged since 1.07. That´s the main problem.

 

[arcorelli]

Originally posted by Barnius
Yeah, right, we all saw how that nicely 'works'

IMVHO, The situation only arised in Machiavelli because that game was about RP, and the Spanish player attacked protestant rebels as hard as he could. But usually, in other games, the Netherlands are not attacked that early. In fact, in several games, they end very rich and powerful.

In a normal game if they got a starting pack and they are not attacked in the first five years they appear, they should end just right.

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by arcorelli
IMVHO, The situation only arised in Machiavelli because that game was about RP, and the Spanish player attacked protestant rebels as hard as he could. But usually, in other games, the Netherlands are not attacked that early. In fact, in several games, they end very rich and powerful.

In a normal game if they got a starting pack and they are not attacked in the first five years they appear, they should end just right.

Only if Spain doesn´t fight them but if Spain only raises a finger they can´t come into existance..

 

[arcorelli]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
Only if Spain doesn´t fight them but if Spain only raises a finger they can´t come into existance..

That is true, but I think that there is two different questions: First, what the Netherlands need, in case they appear, to be a decent power and second question, what the Netherlands need to appear in the first place.

For the first question I think we need only with a starting pack and that they are not DOWed very early. For the second question, I am not sure. On one hand the dutch rebellion (and I think more important, the financial problems of Spain at the time) is not that well simulated in the game engine. On the other hand, why we should force the spanish player to release the Netherlands?

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by arcorelli
IMVHO, The situation only arised in Machiavelli because that game was about RP, and the Spanish player attacked protestant rebels as hard as he could. But usually, in other games, the Netherlands are not attacked that early. In fact, in several games, they end very rich and powerful.

In a normal game if they got a starting pack and they are not attacked in the first five years they appear, they should end just right.

But they are unable to form. It's much easyer to fight rebells in 1.07.
Spain would have to be attacked VERY HARD from multiple sides, especially France, to neglect Dutch rebells so that Holland can come into existance. I mean, first rebells have to take the fort, which is not that likely if it's medium or so. Than they have to hold it for a couple of years, which is also not easy with escellent Spanish leaders at that time.

 

[BiB]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
Only if Spain doesn´t fight them but if Spain only raises a finger they can´t come into existance..

That's why there's that historical solution I posted a bit higher

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by BiB
Around 1580 Holland or so should be let to rebel and pop into existence. They will get 4 provinces usually. Edit in an army, a navy and some money (reasonable amounts) and u have the historical situation. That's all that's needed, that is where the Dutch started historically. Anything more is just ahistorical Dutchie lobbying.

Yeah Release by Spain 1580 latest. Immeaditly dow by Holland on Spain and edit in Army, Navy and some money.

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by arcorelli
That is true, but I think that there is two different questions: First, what the Netherlands need, in case they appear, to be a decent power and second question, what the Netherlands need to appear in the first place.

For the first question I think we need only with a starting pack and that they are not DOWed very early. For the second question, I am not sure. On one hand the dutch rebellion (and I think more important, the financial problems of Spain at the time) is not that well simulated in the game engine. On the other hand, why we should force the spanish player to release the Netherlands?

I agree with you: two different questions.

For the first I don't have any objections: Netherlands should get SOME LIMITED REASONABLE inital money, navy and army. I even think no guarantee on 5 year truce is needed, although BiB proved the opposite

It is the second question that we can't find a solution for. You are right, the game doesn't simmulate that at all. So I suggested the following:
1) Immediatelly after the Dutch rebellion event Spain release Netherlands as vassal
2) Some limited resources are added to netherlands
3) Netherlands MUST break vassalisation and DoW Spain immediatelly - thus simmulating the rebellion

And the rest is in other player's hands. If France and England don't intervene, Netherlands will be reduced to one province, and perhaps in one month DoWed again and annexed

 

[TheArchduke]

Originally posted by Barnius
I agree with you: two different questions.

For the first I don't have any objections: Netherlands should get SOME LIMITED REASONABLE inital money, navy and army. I even think no guarantee on 5 year truce is needed, although BiB proved the opposite

It is the second question that we can't find a solution for. You are right, the game doesn't simmulate that at all. So I suggested the following:
1) Immediatelly after the Dutch rebellion event Spain release Netherlands as vassal
2) Some limited resources are added to netherlands
3) Netherlands MUST break vassalisation and DoW Spain immediatelly - thus simmulating the rebellion

And the rest is in other player's hands. If France and England don't intervene, Netherlands will be reduced to one province, and perhaps in one month DoWed again and annexed.

Well a truce involving the ceding of three provinces should take more than 1 month of the other administration moving in again.

 

[Wyvern]

Originally posted by TheArchduke
The revolt risk is bugged since 1.07. That´s the main problem.

Only bugged regarding Holland - please don't suggest a return to how revolt risk used to work!

 

[unmerged(10146)]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Only bugged regarding Holland - please don't suggest a return to how revolt risk used to work!

You are absolutely right, the new revolt risk model is generally much better than the old one. Only for Holland some changes are needed.

 

[RedPhoenix]

I think releasing holland and then holland dowing spain, is a good solution yes. or atleast editing a war between them. Actually I'd agree that is the best way to go, do this in 1580 if they are not free by then. or so. give them some troops money and ships.

 

[ForzaA]

just my two cents

4 possible starts

1) 1568, but at this time there wasn't THAT much of a country yet.. better simulated with the RR taxpenalty as it is now

2) 1575, Union of Utrecht.. Dutch really getting organised, situation of war should erupt ASAP (Dutch breaking vassalisation + DoW)

3) early 17th century| 12 year truce (1608) , the spanish and Dutch agreed to a truce, mainly because the Spanish got their @$$ handed on a plate in their own spanish harbors, with the Spanish accepting (though temporarily) the Dutch suzerainity over the northern territories (EU2: Holland, Friesen, large parts of Gelre, parts of Zeeland)

4) 1648, the Peace of Westphalia (thats the English name IIRC) Spain really recognized dutch independence.

now, for gameplay purposes, i suggest setting the Dutch free somewhere between 2 and 3, with some fighting ofcourse, and perhaps as an additional rule forbid spain to either
- Annex the Netherlands, or
- to DoW them when they have only one European province

it is ofcourse a bit fabricated, but this seems like the best solution to me.. but something needs to ballance the rediculous amount of mercenaries one is able to recruit in the Netherlands as Spain.