Holland becoming The Netherlands?

[Habbaku]

Something that's bugged me for a while now is the often historical reference to "Holland," which, I believe, most people instantly think of "The Netherlands" when they hear it. My question is when did one (Holland) become the other (The Netherlands) and why?

 

[Kasperus]

Hmm, what exactly do you mean? The name "Holland" that would have changed to "The Netherlands" or the country itself?

For both cases: well, let me put straight that Holland as today is the name of the westernmost province (actually 2 provinces - north- and south-holland but in the past there was no difference) of the Netherlands. The origins of the name Holland are not clear - some historians seen in it some vague linguistic references to various geographical characteristics but right at the moment I cannot recall these. Anyway, politically the name was first used as the name of a county more or less around the city of Dordrecht, being formed in the 11th century iirc. The county, in the 14th century one of the most powerfull in the lowlands, became after the extinsion of its dynasty part of Burgundy and later Hapsburg lands here, as all other territories in the lowlands.

The Netherlands is an old name which doesn`t actually mean much different than the lands in low-river lands. Originally the name would have come from the term Nether-Lotharingen (against the Upper-Lotharingen, centered around Lorraine and Alsace). Politically the mae was probably already used by the Hapsburgs when they managed to conquer and "unify" all the lowland-countries (apart from a few like Kleves in the east) with one of these being Holland.

The dutch uprising found soon its base in Holland - at that moment the name of one of the provinces, the western one around Amsterdam, The-Hague and Dordrecht thus. Together with 7 other provinces it would form the union commonly known as the Republic of United Provinces, or the Republic of the Netherlands. That construction remained unaffected in fact, apart from the fact that it became monarchy after 1814, and then temporarily the United kingdom of the Netherlands (with the later Belgium). After the Belgian secession it became the Netherlands again.

Now, during the republic already one shoudl have thus spoken of the Netherlands as that was the country in fact. But, as not unusual in pre-modernist societies it was not a very centralized country. The provinces were not much more than a confederation and so they pursued (to a certain degree) their own policies. Above most of them Holland was far the importants one - the big trade cities of Amsterdam and Haarlem were here, they had the fleet, they got most of the army, and they controlled the dutch politics. So one could as easily speak of Holland. And even as the power of Holland dissappeared already in the 18th century and then formally was destroyed in the 19th, the use of the name Holland remained to a certain extent in populair use - though mostly outside of Holland.

Today also many languages use rather a version of the word "Holland" thus than the word "Nederland".

 

[Habbaku]

Ah, so the country, itself, wasn't so much called Holland, but was almost-always dominated by its presence... Thanks for the incredibly-detailed response!

 

[Alexandru H.]

I recall that in the XVIIth century the Republic ("General States Country" / Netherlands) became known as Holland, which was pretty abusive. Of course, because of its wealth, prestige and power (remember "The Golden Era" of Holland, with its cities, culture, art and political influence), this province attracted the attention of foreigners more than the other provinces. Moreover, the stathouder of Holland was the direct descendent of Willhelm of Orania.

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
I recall that in the XVIIth century the Republic ("General States Country" / Netherlands) became known as Holland, which was pretty abusive. Of course, because of its wealth, prestige and power (remember "The Golden Era" of Holland, with its cities, culture, art and political influence), this province attracted the attention of foreigners more than the other provinces. Moreover, the stathouder of Holland was the direct descendent of Willhelm of Orania.

Nop. The name Holland was never used for the whole Netherlands - at least not in the Republic itself. Whatever influence Holland had outside the republic, here it was just one of the 7 provinces (though it could buy most of the decisions in its advantage) and none of the other provinces wanted to identify itself with Holland - we are talking here about the the pre-nationalist period after all and regional identity was much more important than a national one.

That stadholder-thing and the familiarity to Willem van Oranje is not entirely correct:
1. the later stadholders were indeed family of Willem van Oranje but at least not in male-line (the line descends from his uncle iirc). I would have to check but iirc one of the descendants of his uncle married later with one of the descendants of Willems daughter. So in that case indeed a direct descendancy but only of the Oranje-title. The other - Nassau came trough the other side of the family.
2. the stadholder was not always only in holland - friesland had almost always a stadholder and some other provinces as well. late 17th century Holland had in fact no stadholder at all. The "ruler" was Jan de Witt who wasn`t tied to Oranje, and he was officially not a stadholder. He governed for some 30 years I think till he was murdered.

 

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Every province could choose its own stadholder. in the beginnig of the republic it could be quite a struggle for the Oranjes to become stadholder for five or six provinces (Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Gelre (gelderland?) Overijssel) Friesland always had a different stadholder and Groningen sometimes switched sides.


I have another question?

why is the title stadhouder (=> city keeper) when in fact the function was something for a whole province?

 

[Pewe]

why is the title stadhouder (=> city keeper) when in fact the function was something for a whole province?

I was thinking about this too. I had problems with one of my danish teachers, that was calling them Stateholder. I couldn't make her accept that it is called Stadhouder or why it was called that.

 

[Archeolooginspe]

The linguistical explanation of the name Holland is simply Holt-land (Woodland) and wood have applied first to the area around Enkhuizen I thought, I can be wrong though, so my Dutch friends, strangly enough Holland had once do many woods, instead of these boring pastures.

Holland is also lingualy spoken a pars pro toto (a little part for the whole) and like said here above Holland was the most powerful province.

 

[unmerged(3420)]

The use of "Netherlands" comes from the English word "nether", which means "lower" (as in "nether world", or "his nether parts" or genitals).

In other words, "Netherlands" is a near match for "Low Countries", which is also used in English speaking lands for the Benelux group.

English speakers are not accustomed to using the definite article "the" when referring to a country. There are some exceptions (the Ukraine, the Sudan, the Congo), but by and large it's not common usage. That's probably how the avoidance of "the Netherlands" and the use of "Holland" grew.

 

[unmerged(860)]

in Finnish we call it "Alankomaat" and "Hollanti"
and Alankomaat is harder to say often, so from common usage of Hollanti I use it in English too..

 

[Duque de Bragança]

Originally posted by Archeolooginspe
The linguistical explanation of the name Holland is simply Holt-land (Woodland) and wood have applied first to the area around Enkhuizen I thought, I can be wrong though, so my Dutch friends, strangly enough Holland had once do many woods, instead of these boring pastures.

Holland is also lingualy spoken a pars pro toto (a little part for the whole) and like said here above Holland was the most powerful province.

Rhethorically speaking it is a metonymia or transnominatio based on the pars pro toto principle of course.

My geography teacher at high school kept on repeating us that the Netherlands (Pays-Bas/Paises Baixos or Low Countries) is more correct than Holland since the latter is only a part of the former stricto sensu.

 

[Aemilius XXIII]

A reaction on two postings

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
I have another question?

Why is the title stadhouder (=> city keeper) when in fact the function was something for a whole province?

The Dutch word "stadhouder" is the result of a wrong interpretation by the Dutch of the word "stede" for "stad" (city)

The Dutch word "stede" have different meanings. It can indeed have the meaning "stad" but in this question "stede" don't mean "stad" (city) but translated in english "stead".

The Dutch word "stede" is very old and almost not used in todays Dutch. The correct interpretation for "stede" in this matter is (as written above) not city but stead. The Dutch word "houder" mean "holder". So the correct translation for "Stedehouder" is not "city-keeper" but "steadholder".

Originally posted by Pewe
I was thinking about this too. I had problems with one of my danish teachers, that was calling them Stateholder. I couldn't make her accept that it is called Stadhouder or why it was called that.

In your difference of opinion with your teacher, she is close by the correct understanding. The wrong used word "Stadhouder", is coming from the old word "stedehouder" and have (as written above) nothing to do with a "stad" (city)

The word "state" mean original not nation but social group/class, by example the rich merchants, who had an important position in the Dutch republic. "Staten" or "standen" is Dutch for "states" (the plural of state/class) The different social groups/classes, thus the different states (in the original meaning of the word state) are forming together the nation.

The name for the Dutch parliament is "de Staten Generaal" or (in English translated) "the General States". The word "generaal" mean in fact "collective". The general, the collective states, are this example the population of the Netherlands who are in "de Staten Generaal (the Dutch parliament) represented.

In the Dutch republic were the members of the parliament the representatives of the better states in their own province. The more important a province was, (Holland was the most important one) the more representatives and because that the more votes it had in the parliament.

During the time of the Dutch republic acted the steadholder (as a kind of executive governor) for the usual matters instead of "de Staten Generaal". The parliament came only sparely for important or uncommon questions in session together. The most members of the parliament lived in the different provinces, not in The Hague, the republic was a decentralized federation of provinces.

So,.. is there a better definition for "steadholder"?... The man in The Hague who protected the interests for the better states living in the provinces, by holding these in their stead?

Greetings from Aemilius XXIII

 

[unmerged(14858)]

The origins Holland are from around The Hague ('s Gravenhage-> The Duke's place) were it started and expandend eastwards and to the north, or least I seem to have read somewhere.
This would make sense since the area is/was mostly dunes mixed with forests (Holland->Holtland->Woodland).

But it deffinately didn't start in West- Friesland. Because I remember a story of the Duke of Holland ( Willem the what's is his number? late medieval) trying to subdue the West-Frisians and got trapped under ice.
Maybe simple explanation, but it works for me

 

[Aemilius XXIII]

Originally posted by Mendoran
<...>Because I remember a story of the Duke of Holland ( Willem the what's is his number? late medieval) trying to subdue the West-Frisians and got trapped under ice.
Maybe simple explanation, but it works for me

This is happend at January the 28th 1256 near the town Hoogwoud. The Duke of Holland you mean was Willem the 2nd. He was killed by the West Frisians at the age of 22 years, indeed after he gone through the ice with his horse.

Greetings, Aemilius XXIII

 

[Aemilius XXIII]

Originally posted by crooktooth
The use of "Netherlands" comes from the English word "nether", which means "lower" (as in "nether world", or "his nether parts" or genitals).

In other words, "Netherlands" is a near match for "Low Countries", which is also used in English speaking lands for the Benelux group.

The textual translation of the english word "nether" is in dutch "neder" The "Netherlands" is in dutch named "Nederland" or very official "Koninkrijk der Nederlanden" (Kingdom of the Netherlands). So the English name Netherlands for Nederland is textual a very good translation.

English speakers are not accustomed to using the definite article "the" when referring to a country. There are some exceptions (the Ukraine, the Sudan, the Congo), but by and large it's not common usage. That's probably how the avoidance of "the Netherlands" and the use of "Holland" grew.

In the dutch speaking countries is your country named "de Verenigde Staten" in english textual translated as "the United States"
This because the plural form "states" instead of "state" in the nation name. The Netherlands or "de Verenigde Provincien" (the United Provinces, there is almost always a ship with that name in the dutch navy) is also plural.

Greetings, Aemilius XXIII

 

[w_mullender]

IIRC the word stadhouder (stadholder) has nothing to do with the dutch word for city. Literally it means "holder of a position" meanig that he actually holds the position of the reigning lord (like a governor) in a province. Basically what was posted before.

This position was created in the 13th century and institutionalised by Filip the Good of Burgundy. The stadholder was chairing the supreme provincial court and the provincial estates and were member of the general estates. They were responsible to the lord or the governor (under Charles V) and he appointed or dismissed them. Later Charles V and Filips II tried to curtail their power (and that of the nobility in general), which was one of the main causes for the dutch revolt to actually succeed.
After the revolt the position remained as it was the highest position left and the king wasnt formally dismissed (For example the first dutch university is officially founded by Filips II). The other reason the position remained is that William of Orange was killed before they could make him earl (or count).

Each of the 7 provinces had a stadholder (in the beginning 2 later only one stadholder for all), but his power varied greatly per province. In Holland his power was most limited, especially by the cities which were dominated by the merchants. In times of war the stadholder was usually able to broaden his power base (as commander in chief), but often it was reversed once the war was over. During the 18th century the power of the stadholder slowly declined due to the declining economy and poor government.

The origin of the name Holland is indeed Holtland (meaning woodland) and is indeed the region aroound Dordrecht. At the time it got its name it was a very forested (well actually more of a swamp) area, which was turned into areable land during the middle ages. Later in the 17th century Holland was the more powerful and richer than the other provinces combined and was therefore most known.

 

[unmerged(15353)]

stadhouder

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson
Every province could choose its own stadholder. in the beginnig of the republic it could be quite a struggle for the Oranjes to become stadholder for five or six provinces (Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Gelre (gelderland?) Overijssel) Friesland always had a different stadholder and Groningen sometimes switched sides.


I have another question?

why is the title stadhouder (=> city keeper) when in fact the function was something for a whole province?

I can help You out with this one.
And Ther answer is surprisingly simple.
Stadhouder Was The man That controlled The capital of a province as a seconf to the landlord wether That be a count duke or king.
Willem of Orange in His yunger years was offert The post of Stadhouder of Luxemburg By Emperor Charles V in order to gently remove him from the center of power in Brussels.
Willem (William) refused most polaitly argumenting that His estates in Breda and Brussel needed repairs and rebudgetation
(He almost went bankrupt) Thus His pressents was requairred in Brussel.
So The stadhouder and a provincial governor are not the same for Willem would have to work as stadhouder unther governor Count van Megen app. By Charles V to reform The Luxemburg lands.
Hopfully I surved You with this.
Friendly greetings

 

[unmerged(15353)]

stadhouder

Originally posted by w_mullender
IIRC the word stadhouder (stadholder) has nothing to do with the dutch word for city. Literally it means "holder of a position" meanig that he actually holds the position of the reigning lord (like a governor) in a province. Basically what was posted before.

This position was created in the 13th century and institutionalised by Filip the Good of Burgundy. The stadholder was chairing the supreme provincial court and the provincial estates and were member of the general estates. They were responsible to the lord or the governor (under Charles V) and he appointed or dismissed them. Later Charles V and Filips II tried to curtail their power (and that of the nobility in general), which was one of the main causes for the dutch revolt to actually succeed.
After the revolt the position remained as it was the highest position left and the king wasnt formally dismissed (For example the first dutch university is officially founded by Filips II). The other reason the position remained is that William of Orange was killed before they could make him earl (or count).

Each of the 7 provinces had a stadholder (in the beginning 2 later only one stadholder for all), but his power varied greatly per province. In Holland his power was most limited, especially by the cities which were dominated by the merchants. In times of war the stadholder was usually able to broaden his power base (as commander in chief), but often it was reversed once the war was over. During the 18th century the power of the stadholder slowly declined due to the declining economy and poor government.

The origin of the name Holland is indeed Holtland (meaning woodland) and is indeed the region aroound Dordrecht. At the time it got its name it was a very forested (well actually more of a swamp) area, which was turned into areable land during the middle ages. Later in the 17th century Holland was the more powerful and richer than the other provinces combined and was therefore most known.

This info You have used is outdated
Sorry happends in history writting.
Stad Houder stand-houder (Hold- fearm) to good to be true and it isn't.
Like Holland The name is said to be transformed from Holt(hout)wood-land.
The combination of The words STAND-HOUDER do not appear in Nederdiets(Niederdeutsch).
Ans surtenly this word combination Has never been used as a title
for a City Magistrate.
The word Stadhouder is no more Than a Flemish translation of It Frensh equivalent for Flanders was a Frensh fief from 843 When it was attatsched to The West-Franken Emp.
The Flemische people ment thus The Frensh militairy commander in there city.
Sorry about This hope You won't hold it against Me.
Friendly greetings.

 

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Johan and Cornelius de Witt

Originally posted by Kasperus
Nop. The name Holland was never used for the whole Netherlands - at least not in the Republic itself. Whatever influence Holland had outside the republic, here it was just one of the 7 provinces (though it could buy most of the decisions in its advantage) and none of the other provinces wanted to identify itself with Holland - we are talking here about the the pre-nationalist period after all and regional identity was much more important than a national one.

That stadholder-thing and the familiarity to Willem van Oranje is not entirely correct:
1. the later stadholders were indeed family of Willem van Oranje but at least not in male-line (the line descends from his uncle iirc). I would have to check but iirc one of the descendants of his uncle married later with one of the descendants of Willems daughter. So in that case indeed a direct descendancy but only of the Oranje-title. The other - Nassau came trough the other side of the family.
2. the stadholder was not always only in holland - friesland had amost always a stadholder and some other provinces as well. late 17th century Holland had in fact no stadholder at all. The "ruler" was Jan de Witt who wasn`t tied to Oranje, and he was officially not a stadholder. He governed for some 30 years I think till he was murdered.

Yep!...Johan de Witt Raadspensionaris of Holland was murderd in
The hague By a gate called the prisnors-Gate (You can stil visit the place!)
To The title Raadspensionaris is quaitte The same As Pr.Minister of a Authonomouse area ore Dominion If You like.

Al Dutch provinces where more ore less authonomouse within The frame of The Republic.
What happend:
Johan de witt travled from Dordrecht ,His home Town To Den Hague to vissit his brother arrested for corruption while He served As Lord Admiral in Tht Dutch Navy.
Holland Was at War With England (3th time) France Köln and Munster Her Allies Sweden and Brandenburg Where payed By
Louis XIV to look The "other" way.
Johannes de Wit had in His 22 years of domination of The Republic strengsend Its Navy ,To proteckt Its oversea's trade
but neglected Her land forces becourse He trusted on His capabillety To keep Holland out of a major conflickt coupled with a almost deadly dangerous confidence in his alies.
The war went bad and the people rallaid to The streeds demanding The enstalment of The young prins William III with al powers formerly owed by his pre Decessers.
Johan gave in and resigned from office shortly before His brother was arrested.
He traveld by coach to The hagues not thinking anything of it,the idea That a mob would dare to attack him didn't occoure to Him at all.
He quaietly made His way trough a growing crowd and went in to the prison building in The time He spend inside with His brother the crowd cought fire (it happens and nowone nows afterwerths wat or how it exactly started)
When He came out and wanted to leave The mob grabed him and slaughtered Him in The most grusomely sence of the word,They also grabbed His brother and killed Him The same way,
This murder is rememberd in Dutch History as The"Moord op de gebroeders Johan en Cornelus de Witt"20th of August 1672.
1672 is called The"Disastres Year 1672"

I'll think about making a more detailed story about The de Witt's
and There times.

 

[Kasperus]

hmm, I don`t understand what andrashi exactly means but at least about the origine of use of the words stadhouder the following is said: stadhouder means literally plaatsbekleder (thus steadholder as some already called it). THus someone who was representing the king in one of his 'countries' - at least that was the idea before the union of Utrecht. There was also exactly 1 stadholder per 'land' that has been governed. In Bourgondian and Hapsburg time that was thus every province should have had one (as far that province was also considered a separate territory). The name was further used in the republic but its meaning wasn`t thus literally the same anymore as it has been before and so was the role of standhouder in the republic different.

As to Netherlands: as already said the literally meaning is rather obvious if you know the current geographical shape. But the idea of the name has had a history as well. I think I already mentionned that in the (post) carolingian days the territory was a part of Lotharingen. Lotharingen was comonly (and later politically) split into Upper- and Nether-Lotharingen. THis was obviously the effect oif geographical features and especially the role of the rivers (upper-part of the rivers; nether/lower parts of the river). SInce the lower-lands were the territories around the 'delta' of the Rhine and Maas (Friesen were probably not included in the original meaning of the word). As the territory surprisingly was 'reunited' under Hapsburgs the old name was an excuse to fit the low lands together - more than culture certainly.

The name Holland is today assumed to be deriven thus from Holtland, though there are indeed medieval historians who doubt that. The explanation of wood is not so easily acceptable if you know that the original territory which we call holland (not around Enkhuizen which was west-frisian but around Dordrecht and Leiden thus) wasn`t really a 'wood' in these days. Yes, 1500 years ago it was as the sea-level was lower. But that would imply that Holland was a 'state' already somewhere in 6th, 7th century. In 12th century when Holland started really to become something of a political construction the territory was all marches and lakes however. There are also other hypotheses deriven from names of Norman conquerors or other mystical figures.