Hold at all costs!

[Panzerschiffe]

But the Japanese army broke and collapsed in a few days in Operation August Storm, as did vast swaths of the German Army. The Japanese Army also fell back under heavy pressure in the Dutch East Indies, in New Guinea, China and Burma, and held plenty of retreats in the Phillipines.
They held out until the death on many small Islands simply because retreat was impossible, they had no place to go. Any other time the Japanese, Germans and Soviets behaved the same as any army at a strategic level.

They fled into the jungle when the americans landed at Guadalcanal. The airbase was under construction and had the japanese kept control of it till it was operational, it certainly would have put the aussies in a tight spot. It was a very important position yet they fled anyways.

I guess they retreated when it was possible. Kamikazes only started late in the war when japan had pretty much lost the war anyways and were just buying time and hoping to not get their home islands invaded.

 

[unmerged(135152)]

I find it amusing how people still in this day and age find it in their hearts to show respect for this Prussian dilly-dally.

Friedrich Paulus said everything worth saying on the subject when he was promoted to Field Mashal in Stalingrad, "I ain't dying over no Bohemian corporal". That showed more character than all the useless seppuku tossers out there.

Hungry worn out "soldiers" taught to fear their enemy more than to respect their own lives is nothing but sad. It certainly isn't effective, doctrinal, something to be proud of or important on a strategic scale (HOI3).

Sorry.

 

[lila-laune-bär]

At the end of the war German doctrine said that every city was a fortress that had to be defended to the last man.

I'd say less doctrine than propaganda. There were some fanatical indoctrinated HJ kids who were given weapons to throw back the Russians, Americans, whoever came, and who actually were killed trying to attack the Allies.
But when the Allies were marching through Germany practically unopposed, the vast majority of the people tried to get out of uniform and desert asap. Both of my grandfathers were drafted into the Volkssturm. One managed to sneak away and run off, the other one's group was told by the guy in charge "There's the door, make a run for it."

 

[Alex_brunius]

I think it could be useful to have such an order thats automatically triggered if there is no retreat route, perhaps depending some on doctrine.

It would allow units to fight to some extent even if their org is depleated. The damage they can inflict would be pretty minimal, but they would slow enemy advances down by alot since enemies have to clear out every little building or cave. I think there are alot of examples of this in reality, with divisions keeping the combat up long after they know its lost, or divisions fighting in situations where their org would be long gone in HoI.

 

[unmerged(12217)]

This could best be presented as a battlefield event or a leadership trait, or some combination thereof.

 

[ROMANU]

brunius put it out very well, IF there is no retreat possible there should be a bonus to the defending troops (a battle event with a certain chance of happening DEPENDING on the doctrine)

so the best way to encircle and distroy a unit is NOT by surrounding them but by leaving a small door open and close it after the unit tries to retreat

this is how the turks won many battles (at a smallar scale)

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

perhaps we can have units shatter in combat if they lose too many men?

Hmm, I think this represents it perfectly? Don't you all think? If this kind of feature was implemented, it would work perfectly!





Oh wait, it is Admins know all!

 

[unmerged(133201)]

I think units which cant retreat should gain slight bonus to their defense efficiency, doesn't lose org as rapidly, but takes penalties in attack efficiency and higher strenght losses. I dont think hold at all costs command would be very functional because divisions that lose their org are practically ineffective and may shatter in combat.

 

[Alex_brunius]

What it gets down to is fighting tactics. And those will depend alot on if retreat is possible or not.

If there is no retreat possible almost all commanders would be ready to sacrifice men to keep cohersion (organisation) and fighting capability up. While in a flexible and mobile situation most would seek to minimize casualties and rather make small scale retreats/movements within the province (lose org) when things get too hairy.

 

[Lord KhaZimir]

i'm surprised nobody took in consideration that (let say the loss tolerancy slider) allows also to retreat without fighting. As i say, this option is
available in TOAW, an excellent wargame. If you don't want all of your
attacking units to be involved the same way eg: you want your panzers to support attack but not to loose org before rushing into enemy positions, you
set them "light losses". They break off as soon as they are slightly hit.

The same way, if you don't want your HQ to be smashed, you just let it flee
while your infantry units are "fighting to the death" and protect the retreat of
the HQ unit.

I don't exactly want to see sepuku ceremonies or collective suicide, i want
to decide which unit has to leave as soon as hit and which has to stay and
fight at all costs like in Stalingrad / Monte Cassino etc...

Of course, i can manually do it in Hoi2 but on x5 map, micromanagement
would be atrocious...

 

[vertinox]

Why wasn't it possible in Hoi2 to ask troops to fight untill they are obliterated or to retreat at contact. Like the mission screen for fleets/air units with the casualties (or org lost) tolerancy slider ?

Maybe this could be part of laws?

Maybe the "not one step back" law could give your untis a 50% morale boast but at the cost of -50% manoeuvring.

Of course, even with such laws weren't always followed by the generals or men.

 

[Aidan]

It depends on how the AI fronts operate now. I know you can assign the AI to control a theatre but can you give them operational orders?

If you can give operational orders to the AI then I'd definately include an option for a "not one step back" type of defense. As bad a strategy it is it was the entire german east front strategy for almost 4 years and it was the soviet defensive strat in '41.

 

[Cpack]

perhaps we can have units shatter in combat if they lose too many men?

shatter will be good if there're different influences (tech, sliders, doctrines...) when this should happen.
F.e. the chance for japanese troops to shatter is definately smaler than a lot of other nations