HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]

[Kovax]

"Status Indicators" as pictured really don't convey the kind of information at a glance that a NATO or equivalent counter does. "X = INF" is pretty obvious, whereas a bunch of double status bars with graphic indications of other conditions requires a lot closer look just to see WHAT it is. The pictured "counters" in the screen shot with Italy tell me that there are a bunch of scattered units of some sort, with mostly full ORG and Strength, mostly with a big number 1 (whatever that represents). Essentially, some of the least useful information is the most obvious.

There's also a tiny picture of a helmet (Infantry? Do Marines or Militia use the same image?), a picture of a towed gun (ART or AT?), and some tanky things (L, M, H, or TD?), which I can barely make out at the resolution of the map image, blown up nearly to full-screen. I'd hate to have to rely on those to play the game, but the thought of resorting to a little animated army guy to represent a formation of 3K-15K men really doesn't instill a sense of anticipation for the game, either.

I have no complaints about the map itself (I must admit that I too am not particularly fond of the pink color for HUN, as another poster pointed out), but the lack of "standard" counters is a serious inconvenience, in my opinion.

 

[podcat]

Anyone notice the single artillery "counters" on the screenshot of Northern Italy? Seeing Infantry and Tank "counters' were expected but single artillery pieces, what does that suppose to represent?

The artillery counters are kinda of a catch-em-all indicator for all other unit types atm. Most of the ones shown now are cavalry actually. We will be reworking this so they match the icon of the division template they use.

OMG - did you finally make the rivers follow the province borders, so we can tell directly from a glance on the map whether there will be a river crossing malus? You guys are the best

Yes, it was one of the first things we did. Extremely important to know when you get penalties or not. btw we now have two sizes of rivers with different penalties to make areas play differently.

Dude this is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

faggot

I love you too

 

[cdub8d]

The map looks fantastic. Really love the political map. The fog of war could be way less dense but that might just be my own personal taste.

 

[unmerged(299084)]

Good looking map, I'm not sure about the system requirements tough.

 

[safe-keeper]

Yes, it was one of the first things we did. Extremely important to know when you get penalties or not. btw we now have two sizes of rivers with different penalties to make areas play differently.

<3

 

[Oliver Twopence]

As FOARP said what you see under the units we call counters. They are much better than showing stacks of hoi3 style counters because they can show a lot more information easily. We'll definitly make a version with NATO style though.

So are you confirming that there will NOT be an option to replace 3d models with HOI3 style counters?

Hmmm...you're right Demonsbane. Podcat seems to be saying that the little picture of a helmet or tank will be replaced by a NATO-style counter, not the 3-D model.

If that is the case then I am significantly less interested in this game. The models looked horrible in HOI3, and still do in HOI4.

Er.. What?!

 

[FOARP]

If that is the case then I am significantly less interested in this game. The models looked horrible in HOI3, and still do in HOI4.

Saying you're not interested in a wargame because of the fact that it will use NATO counters as well as 3D models is like saying you're not interested in a hot girl because she has an equally-hot twin. It's like saying that you don't want to buy a car because it comes with a turbo-charger. It's like saying you don't want to go to a gig because you have back-stage passes. You're saying that something additional to what you want that is highly desirable makes it worse.

 

[safe-keeper]

"Status Indicators" as pictured really don't convey the kind of information at a glance that a NATO or equivalent counter does. "X = INF" is pretty obvious, whereas a bunch of double status bars with graphic indications of other conditions requires a lot closer look just to see WHAT it is. The pictured "counters" in the screen shot with Italy tell me that there are a bunch of scattered units of some sort, with mostly full ORG and Strength, mostly with a big number 1 (whatever that represents). Essentially, some of the least useful information is the most obvious.

What do you think is the easiest to understand for a new player?

a. pictures of helmets, tanks, artillery guns, etc., or

b. all sorts of weird geometric shapes?

You say you want NATO counters, but ironically, you demonstrate, yourself, the kind of confusion a new player faces, illustrating why it's an idea to make things simple and understandable at first glance. Either way, there's no rule book for strategy games that says WWII games have to have NATO counters. EvW used a different system, judging from screenshots.

Switching out pictures for NATO symbols is easily done by mod either way, so I still don't see the problem.

 

[Tasmosunt]

I just realized those buildings are the airbases and ports, I would suggest using the old symbols to make them recognisable.

 

[Modestus]

Is it being confirmed that we are stuck we 3D models? Or has there been a misunderstanding and if you choose to play with counters the 3D models will be replaced by a larger version of the rectangular thing we see under the 3D model.

 

[Gamer_1745]

No Panzer General is a tactical/operational level game. You are too young if you think 2002-3 is 'a long time ago'. I am talking about board games like 'Rise and Decline of the Third Reich' (1974) or the improved version 'Advanced Third Reich'. Games of divisional level as the main element.

I would want 3D models if it was a tactical level game!

 

[FOARP]

I just realized those buildings are the airbases and ports, I would suggest using the old symbols to make them recognisable.

Like safe-keeper pointed out, whilst re-using the same symbols would be easy for people familiar with HOI3, this game should also appeal to new players who are more likely to realise that a 3D model of an aerodrome is an aerodrome than they are that a few crossed lines represents one.

 

[ingwe]

This looks good, and I am excited. For some reason I am a little nervous. I couldn't find any provinces with multiple unit types in them. I am curious about how these will display. The other thing is what determines the sprite/counter displayed for each unit? Do we set that when we make the unit template. Can we have multiple types of these counters for the multiple types of infantry divisions we use? As in, if I have one template with more support weapons in and one template with fewer support units, can I assign them different counters?

 

[FOARP]

No Panzer General is a tactical/operational level game. You are too young if you think 2002-3 is 'a long time ago'. I am talking about board games like 'Rise and Decline of the Third Reich' (1974) or the improved version 'Advanced Third Reich'. Games of divisional level as the main element.

I would want 3D models if it was a tactical level game!

Seems you'll be getting both. Isn't that a good thing?

 

[Roggle_Dorn]

A load of horseshit

It is more like saying I am not interesting a hot girl because she wears nothing by orange latex, or not wanting a car because it is a clown car, or not wanting to go to a gig because I don't like the band.
If you had actually read what I said you would understand the EXISTENCE of models does not bother me, being forced to use them instead of vastly superior (in my opinion) options that, conviently enough, take less resources to make, does.

 

[Gamer_1745]

podcat,

You may have missed my earlier post with the speed posts are being made so I will try again.

And to fallow up on EPICCCP's question, what happens when I click on a province? Will an info box appear with province detail like name, image & other province stats?

 

[telesien]

I grew up playing WWII strategy games. Guess what? Most of them didn't use NATO counters.

One of the biggest titles when I was a kid was Panzer General, which used sprites. In fact I'm having a hard time remembering any of the SSI games that used NATO symbols.

Did HOI1 use NATO symbols? I don't think it did but 2002-3 is a long time ago. HOI2 vanilla didn't use them [EDIT: or did it? at any rate I was never bother to switch and they weren't used in the side-bar], not on-map anyway though there were plenty of mods.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind using them in the game. I just don't get the emotional aspect, especially not the irrational hatred of 3D sprites.

Pretty much this. If deon well, sprites and models are much better. With some work and love, they can even precisely show which type of plane, tank or artillery there is.

I must play some Panzer General soon...

 

[Oakfan]

We'll be doing a video at some point as most of this doesnt really show very well in still pictures (particularly rain and snow and such)

Confused, will Podcat cast a video tomorrow?

 

[D3m0]

Switching out pictures for NATO symbols is easily done by mod either way, so I still don't see the problem.

Seems you'll be getting both. Isn't that a good thing?

Podcat seems to be implying (it's hard to say, since the devs are apparently avoiding giving a clear answer on this) that by NATO symbols he means an option for the pictures inside the counter below the 3D models, but that the 3D models themselves will always be there.

 

[FOARP]

It is more like saying I am not interesting a hot girl because she wears nothing by orange latex, or not wanting a car because it is a clown car, or not wanting to go to a gig because I don't like the band.
If you had actually read what I said you would understand the EXISTENCE of models does not bother me, being forced to use them instead of vastly superior (in my opinion) options that, conviently enough, take less resources to make, does.

You seem to have missed the fact that you are getting NATO counters - you are not forced to use models instead of NATO counters, you get both. AFAIK the counters in HOI3 actually used similar resources to the sprites (at least a dev once made statements to this effect), so there is no major saving in resources.

Podcat seems to be implying (it's hard to say, since the devs are apparently avoiding giving a clear answer on this) that by NATO symbols he means an option for the pictures inside the counter below the 3D models, but that the 3D models themselves will always be there.

I assume that's what they're saying. What I don't get is where the problem with this is - you get NATO symbols, which is what people are asking for. What's wrong with that set-up?