Agree, I do not see myself purchasing HOI4 anytime soon. Perhaps some modders will fix what Paradox refuse to add, and the game might be right for me then, we'll see, but as it seems now, no purchase for this grog.
HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]
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Agree, I do not see myself purchasing HOI4 anytime soon. Perhaps some modders will fix what Paradox refuse to add, and the game might be right for me then, we'll see, but as it seems now, no purchase for this grog.
Did anyone really think when playing RomeII:TW "Oh, all this snow and rain in my face that obscures everything is really getting me into the game." or "The way the screen color nauseatingly strobes when i quickly switch between desert and forest really makes me feel like i'm in the game"?
Also, i'm genuinely confused at the fog of war decision. I mean, no matter what angle I approach it from it makes absolutely no sense. "This game will incentivize scrutinizing your opponent's geography in advance. Oh, also the geography will be totally obscured because of a literal interpretation of a metaphor." I don't want to sound like a whiny nitpicker. If the reason for this was explained in the many pages of this thread, could someone please point it out to me.
This all comes down to a game design decision which is important to strategy games, whether you want the graphics to represent the actual, physical reality or to be highly stylized, based on real-world strategic notation and representation. In my opinion, Paradox have made games that attempt to make you feel like a leader, with an interface which more closely resembles war room maps and briefings. There has never been a need for detailed cities that light up at night or rendered weather effects if they add nothing to the aesthetic and the information can be given in a thematically relevant way.
Moving towards a hyper-detailed world map, is a big design change which seems to go against their previous "war-room" design philosophy. To me, the more detailed the map and effects get the less immersive the game gets, as the game was never truly about a "god's view" perspective but to some extent an attempt to make you feel like a leader from the time. Counters are part of this although i'll say no more.
There is no reason for HOI to try to be like Theatre of War or some other physically grounded game like that because the grand strategy focus. I really want the new HOI to be good, but currently there seems to be a lot of gratuitousness in the visual design that probably stems from a confused vision of the game from the top.
People always laugh when it is suggested that "Paradox games with Total War battles would be the best" because it shows such a misunderstanding of the scope, philosophy and design of Paradox games. With that in mind, tell me why we need visible snowflakes or actual, literal fog (think again about how totally ridiculous that is) in a HOI game. What a game "feels" like is all-important and I can say that I think if they imitated the style of DEFCON I would feel more engaged than with all the HD snowflake particle effects my GPU can render stuffed in my face.
Also, i'm genuinely confused at the fog of war decision. I mean, no matter what angle I approach it from it makes absolutely no sense. "This game will incentivize scrutinizing your opponent's geography in advance. Oh, also the geography will be totally obscured because of a literal interpretation of a metaphor." I don't want to sound like a whiny nitpicker. If the reason for this was explained in the many pages of this thread, could someone please point it out to me.
This all comes down to a game design decision which is important to strategy games, whether you want the graphics to represent the actual, physical reality or to be highly stylized, based on real-world strategic notation and representation. In my opinion, Paradox have made games that attempt to make you feel like a leader, with an interface which more closely resembles war room maps and briefings. There has never been a need for detailed cities that light up at night or rendered weather effects if they add nothing to the aesthetic and the information can be given in a thematically relevant way.
Moving towards a hyper-detailed world map, is a big design change which seems to go against their previous "war-room" design philosophy. To me, the more detailed the map and effects get the less immersive the game gets, as the game was never truly about a "god's view" perspective but to some extent an attempt to make you feel like a leader from the time. Counters are part of this although i'll say no more.
There is no reason for HOI to try to be like Theatre of War or some other physically grounded game like that because the grand strategy focus. I really want the new HOI to be good, but currently there seems to be a lot of gratuitousness in the visual design that probably stems from a confused vision of the game from the top.
People always laugh when it is suggested that "Paradox games with Total War battles would be the best" because it shows such a misunderstanding of the scope, philosophy and design of Paradox games. With that in mind, tell me why we need visible snowflakes or actual, literal fog (think again about how totally ridiculous that is) in a HOI game. What a game "feels" like is all-important and I can say that I think if they imitated the style of DEFCON I would feel more engaged than with all the HD snowflake particle effects my GPU can render stuffed in my face.
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Podcat mentioned they were still tweaking the fog of war, and what we've seen so far is too 'foggy' - he's said they intend to make terrain viewable through the fog.
As for making someone feel like a leader from the day vs 'God's view', PDS games in mechanical terms have always played from a God's-eye view - you can move any unit you have, anywhere on the world, instantly with no delay (and no their exact position, strength and capability at all times). If the games were designed to make people feel like leaders of the day, we'd be presented with battleplans by our generals for the executive sign-off, then tell them to execute on the appropriate time and then sit and wait for reports to come in - many of the early reports being horrendously inaccurate! Oh, and we'd almost never get to change Ministers, and if we wanted to, we'd need to back-room wheel and deal to get support for our changes.
While the map-room aesthetic helped with the 'I'm a C-in-C of Allied/Germany/Soviet/Japanese forces', the gameplay of PDS games has always firmly been in the 'God in charge and aware of everything in our country' perspective. That doesn't mean a map-room aesthetic is bad for it, but technically speaking it's not more immersive
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podacat made a very good HOI3 and I'm sure that HOI4 will be good as well. The issue I see is about game design. Personally speaking (as many here) I don't care about 3D graphic and a map like this http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-e8ej5L8EZIjy6NeyWrokJe5sCY3Vtdvvr49x5bsxP-4qw-sVpw or this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Maps-for-free_Sierra_Nevada.png is more than enough for me. I do care, instead, about OOB, historical leaders, logistic, combat system, economics/production, etc.
If I can get that from HOI4 I will buy it otherwise I will stick to HOI3 and wait for an expansion or for HOI5.
PS
It would be great if I could combine HOI with something like this http://www.1cpublishing.eu/game/theatre-of-war-2-kursk-1943 where I can have the option to play a real battle.
If I can get that from HOI4 I will buy it otherwise I will stick to HOI3 and wait for an expansion or for HOI5.
PS
It would be great if I could combine HOI with something like this http://www.1cpublishing.eu/game/theatre-of-war-2-kursk-1943 where I can have the option to play a real battle.
Haha, if they ever tied HoI in with something like that, I think we'd literally be playing one game for over a thousand hours! Not saying it's a bad thing, but it'd be huuuuuuge.
Because of the night and day cycle people could be confused by the dark therefore it was considered a good idea that a blanket of fog would cover the earth, sorry I meant the map.
Its not finished yet as it looks too foggy for the fog of war, it can easily be modified.
Since night seems to be more "purple/blue hued light" than darkness, I think darken and grayed map would work fine. I hope this will be easily modable.
Since night seems to be more "purple/blue hued light" than darkness, I think darken and grayed map would work fine. I hope this will be easily modable.
I have no idea why anyone would be bothered in the first place with having a night and day cycle on a map but apparently its important, personally I think its a compete waste of time and a graphical indulgence that has absolutely zero value.
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Yep, in Hoi games to date battles lasted a long time, and it made no difference as to when it actually started, dawn or 10 past 3 in the afternoon.
Does not matter one jot except at the moment you launched the attack which quickly fades into a distant memory as the next day follows the next night.
And even though it is of little tactical or strategic value to know when it is night or day Paradox will insist on the display of this irrelevant and ultimately vacuous information to distort the whole map.
A travesty of design and an insult to the intelligence of the players.
The positive; Every game so far has been an improvement and every game has been improved after vanilla launch
The negative; The pre-launch expectations were much higher and less controversial than with IV
I will be looking closely at the forum views before I buy however.
What is exciting is the current and soon out mods. BI are on fire, DWI are promising something in English (can't wait to try this one) and Tears have a brilliant refreshing take. I would say a combined mod of TFH would be just about perfect!
The negative; The pre-launch expectations were much higher and less controversial than with IV
I will be looking closely at the forum views before I buy however.
What is exciting is the current and soon out mods. BI are on fire, DWI are promising something in English (can't wait to try this one) and Tears have a brilliant refreshing take. I would say a combined mod of TFH would be just about perfect!
Sorry Modestus I acknowledge that you are one of the most competent person about the map but I think that in this case you are too harsh. I don't think that night/day can be a problem as the developers said it can be switched off. The problem I see is about lack of leaders, less provinces, lack of chain of command, etc. Unless those can be modded these are a serious drawback. Let's wait and see the outcome as podcat did a very good job with HOI3.
Competent? His own mods are terrible, they look like something made in the early 90's, He just the one that won't stop moaning about the same features and is unwilling to give the devs the benefit of the doubt and test the final product. It was a nice peaceful two weeks without him posting the same stuff over and over, But obviously his holiday ended.
Night and day makes quite a bit of difference in how your troops fight in HOI3, and I'd be surprised if it didn't make the same difference in HOI4. If it makes a difference then its nice to be able to see it easily.
However that doesn't mean it needs to be "pretty". I personally like the "war room" look - WW2 generals would have looked at abstract maps rather than satellite maps, and the new map mode looks more like a satellite map to me. I'm still hoping that in the 101 other map modes there will be an uncluttered one which shows me what I need to know and I'll just play on that one.
Yes I am being too harsh and unfair to Paradox but for the life of me I do not understand why you would want to distort your map every 8 hours, I fail to see the benefit of showing the player that its night or if its day in such an in your face manner, I consider it to be a bad design choice.
I would suggest that the time of day only really matters when you issue a new order and you almost never halt your advance because its night so while night and day are obviously of some consideration and will impact on the combat the fact that it is such a repeatable event means that the player has no real need to be made aware of it.
Put it this way if every day at 12.00 pm it rained for eight hours would it benefit the game that the map would show that rain I would argue that no it would not and it would be a waste of time however if it rained randomly then it would be of benefit.
I don’t mind if you dislike my map and I know Paradox could make any map in any style they wanted and they could make it better then me a hundred times over, I am not arguing for a 2D map I am suggesting that some of the design choices for the 3D map should be rethought.
Hm, never thought of it this way. I think you're right.
Well, he seems to make some valid reasoning to accompany his deliberations and tries to be civil about it. Take a page
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