i agree...it's just not a HoI counter without counters...I aint waisting my coin on this junk....
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HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]
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i agree...it's just not a HoI counter without counters...I aint waisting my coin on this junk....
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pot...kettle? Perhaps I am mistaken here but isn't a counter system already built into the game with the models that are already in place? I could have sworn I interpreted some of the videos that way....
Just read through everything...
It looks good for the most part, but here are the big problems (not counting the counters)
No province names... This is silly. It's also disappointing. All I ever needed to know about world geography I learned from HOI2. As someone else said, places don't make battles famous, battles make places famous. Kursk is only Kursk! because a bunch of tanks fought there. It could just have easily been the battle of Belgorod. It would be nice to learn a little geography as I fought my way through somewhere.
From a more practical standpoint, it needs to be there for modders and peace negotiations.
Also, no visible infrastructure on the map. I've been big about the importance of rails and it's disappointing that they aren't visible on the map.
It looks good for the most part, but here are the big problems (not counting the counters)
No province names... This is silly. It's also disappointing. All I ever needed to know about world geography I learned from HOI2. As someone else said, places don't make battles famous, battles make places famous. Kursk is only Kursk! because a bunch of tanks fought there. It could just have easily been the battle of Belgorod. It would be nice to learn a little geography as I fought my way through somewhere.
From a more practical standpoint, it needs to be there for modders and peace negotiations.
Also, no visible infrastructure on the map. I've been big about the importance of rails and it's disappointing that they aren't visible on the map.
I have to say that the map is looking absolutely gorgeous. Probably the best looking map so far in a Paradox game. Some notes I made:
1. I really like the more hexagonal style of the map with only a few key cities. Certainly makes map modding a lot more easier. Does the engine have an upper limit when it comes to provinces? Could one, for example, mesh out the whole world with hexagons, tidy up the borders and thus give every country equally sized provinces? Or maybe increase the size of the map overall to allow more provinces?
2. Map overlays. I'm a bit skeptical with the mapmode changing on different zoom levels. I'm someone who has always played Paradox games only in the political map mode and even in Hearts of Iron I've never had a reason to see the terrain. Russia's cold and muddy, Northern Africa is desert, India has jungles. That's all I needed to know, so unless weather and terrain have bigger effects on combat, I don't really see a need for a "general" map mode that shows everything. In addition, at least in my eyes it seems a little confusing. For example, in the picture with Northern Italy, I'm having a really hard time trying to figure out the borders of Austria and Switzerland.
3. I'm on the fence with the whole counter/model issue. I played Hearts of Iron I and II with the sprites and III with counters, but that was mainly because of the chain of command. NATO counters add immersion but I don't really mind if the units are represented in the way they are now. The only issue I see now is that it's really hard to tell which provinces have units in them and which don't. It seems like the current model/counter combination is trying to give too much information in comparison to the amount of space available in a province. In my opinion, the only information that should be shown is what kind of and how many units there are, everything else is unnecessary information.
1. I really like the more hexagonal style of the map with only a few key cities. Certainly makes map modding a lot more easier. Does the engine have an upper limit when it comes to provinces? Could one, for example, mesh out the whole world with hexagons, tidy up the borders and thus give every country equally sized provinces? Or maybe increase the size of the map overall to allow more provinces?
2. Map overlays. I'm a bit skeptical with the mapmode changing on different zoom levels. I'm someone who has always played Paradox games only in the political map mode and even in Hearts of Iron I've never had a reason to see the terrain. Russia's cold and muddy, Northern Africa is desert, India has jungles. That's all I needed to know, so unless weather and terrain have bigger effects on combat, I don't really see a need for a "general" map mode that shows everything. In addition, at least in my eyes it seems a little confusing. For example, in the picture with Northern Italy, I'm having a really hard time trying to figure out the borders of Austria and Switzerland.
3. I'm on the fence with the whole counter/model issue. I played Hearts of Iron I and II with the sprites and III with counters, but that was mainly because of the chain of command. NATO counters add immersion but I don't really mind if the units are represented in the way they are now. The only issue I see now is that it's really hard to tell which provinces have units in them and which don't. It seems like the current model/counter combination is trying to give too much information in comparison to the amount of space available in a province. In my opinion, the only information that should be shown is what kind of and how many units there are, everything else is unnecessary information.
Yugoslavia's rocking the Dutch flag for some reason (acc. to wikipedia, it should blue-white-red from top to bottom).
Hoping to see counters and hoping that names have not been done away with for the many non-city locations.
Also, what is up with that soldier next to Batumi in the Caucasus screenshot?
Otherwise, looking good. I hope you make it easier to mod non-gameplay altering aspects of the map without invalidating ironman+achievements (country names / colors, heightmaps for instance).
Hoping to see counters and hoping that names have not been done away with for the many non-city locations.
Also, what is up with that soldier next to Batumi in the Caucasus screenshot?
Otherwise, looking good. I hope you make it easier to mod non-gameplay altering aspects of the map without invalidating ironman+achievements (country names / colors, heightmaps for instance).
I have to say, that I really love the new counters, quite more than they from HoI3 ...
The fact, that you see the organisation and the strength and also the direct number of divisions in one province (hated to count the stacks in HoI3!!)
Much more clearly than in the older games and also quite sexy design (just my opinion)!
Well done paradox!!! :wub:
Won't miss the NATO counters at all ...
But please please, let us exclude the models!!!
The fact, that you see the organisation and the strength and also the direct number of divisions in one province (hated to count the stacks in HoI3!!)
Much more clearly than in the older games and also quite sexy design (just my opinion)!
Well done paradox!!! :wub:
Won't miss the NATO counters at all ...
But please please, let us exclude the models!!!
I really hope you guys reconsider this, a HUGE part of the immersion for me has always been knowing where I am on the map, having that random backwater village or territory turn into a massive and legendary battle. I get that in WW2 battles were often centered around a city or area (good part of Kharkov was fought around the city, Moscow never got into the actual urban areas, etc) but knowing about the battle for the smaller areas is crucial too.
Also, what happens in areas devoid of a Victory point nearby, like in Central Africa, swaths of India or Central Asia, etc? If I am Japan and already control Delhi from a previous blitz and am attacking units several provinces away from it, it is still going to be called the battle of Delhi even though that isn't even the objective of the offensive?
Either way, I can respect your decision due to funding/time limitations, but if you find any way to at least give an easy way via modding to include province names on the province screen I am sure many would be grateful. Shoot, I will volunteer to name every province for you, just give me a provincial map screenshot and I will label them to help out.
Regardless, good job so far and best of luck on what remains to be done.
Im more than ok on the province name thing. Usually on Hoi III I really dont care about any provinces on the map, too much of them, too much useless information on map, who cares, I just want to take Paris or London, If the region mode has a good implementation (better that hoi II or hoi III,when regions where a bit "meh") I prefer this new system.
I have what I hope is a constructive solution to the province name question. As an avid (OK compulsive) detailed AARer, I cannot envisage doing an AAR that refers to "the raging battle six provinces to the north east of Odessa, the one with the bend of the river, not far from that mountain spur".
I will accept that having to put a name in the graphics in every province is a not only a pia but expensive. But could there be a tool tip that tells you the name? And there still be a "look for" command? I don't know a lot about programming but it would appear to me that that would be far easier than having a visible name on every province. If anyone sees how obviously stupid this must be, please let us know.
As for the NATO symbols, much as I am a supporter of immersion and semi-RPG, how do NATO symbols aid this? Neither side used them in WW2. They just appeal to old board gamers like me. I can live with any sort of symbols as long as they are clear, unambiguous and tell you everything you need to know.
I admit I never use the models, but that was more because I could never tell quickly what was going on. In fact I was never too sure which province half of them were in. So I am willing to give anything a try.
But as is often said about strategy games, the graphics are probably one of the least important bits of a game (sorry graphics people). I got far more steamed up about the inability to kill spies from "dead" countries in the original HOI3 than any graphics issue. So keep the development priorities right. As with many Paradox games, after a year I rarely play an unmodded game.
I will accept that having to put a name in the graphics in every province is a not only a pia but expensive. But could there be a tool tip that tells you the name? And there still be a "look for" command? I don't know a lot about programming but it would appear to me that that would be far easier than having a visible name on every province. If anyone sees how obviously stupid this must be, please let us know.
As for the NATO symbols, much as I am a supporter of immersion and semi-RPG, how do NATO symbols aid this? Neither side used them in WW2. They just appeal to old board gamers like me. I can live with any sort of symbols as long as they are clear, unambiguous and tell you everything you need to know.
I admit I never use the models, but that was more because I could never tell quickly what was going on. In fact I was never too sure which province half of them were in. So I am willing to give anything a try.
But as is often said about strategy games, the graphics are probably one of the least important bits of a game (sorry graphics people). I got far more steamed up about the inability to kill spies from "dead" countries in the original HOI3 than any graphics issue. So keep the development priorities right. As with many Paradox games, after a year I rarely play an unmodded game.
Agree!!
and like Podcat said:
In HoI3 there were too many names (the logical problem with 15.000+ provinces)! The new way seems there much more comfortable. Also I think it's no problem, when it says: battle at Delhi, when the real battle is a few provinces away ... It's like battle of Leningrad or Moscow. That battles also didn't take place right in the cities but next to them! And with 'battle of Delhi' at least you know, where it is ... insteat of 'battle of Faridabat' for example ....
I'm just unsure about the role of provinces in the game ... no names, no diract air combat and also no singular factories (and other buildings!?) for the prvinces ... please don't make them too useless!
must have I think!! Even if we don't need a special name for each province for this, do we!?
I disagree, the names don't hurt at all, but they add quite a lot.
It may appear minor, but small things like that actually help keeping the game in the minds of people. If there is, for example, a mining accident somewhere in the the middle of nowhere and you hear about it in the news, suddenly you go 'wait a minute, I know this place, it's where I won this huge battle in HoI. Mhm, now that I think of it, might be a good idea to play that game again' or if someone wonders were the hell this place is and you can tell him because you saw it all the time while playing the game. It's the small details that let you remember things, and you learn something about the world at the same time, what's not to like about that?
Will the infantry and or tank models have engagement animations and possibly a white flag when retreating? Will there be visual indicators for provinces that have sustained strat/log bombardment?
I think the idea is that all of the references will be made to the states and not the provinces, in fact you are really fighting for control of the state and the province is only a subsection of that entity for manoeuvring troupes. I look forward to this idea being explained in more detail.
Not that I post very much, but let's not forget that that there's historical precedence for this naming battles by. For example, in the American Revolution, the Battle of Bunker Hill was basically fought at Breed's Hill, and in WW2 the main battle of Kursk wasn't fought in Kursk (the administrative center of Kursk Oblast), it was in Prokhorovka.
And for my two cents, I really love the direction that maps have taken, especially the terrain map with shaded borders! I also don't mind models for units (and I have been playing war games for 20-25 years, since I was a young kid), and as along as not everything is a single model soldier or tank (e.g., we have Pz1-6 models for the Germans, BT-/T-/IS- series to show off early and late model lite/mid/heavy armored divs so I can deck out my Guards armored how I want, standard inf divs vs heavy support vs marines, etc) I think there will be enough variety that a) we wont get bored of the generic approach and b) we can get an at-a-glance appreciation for the disposition of our forces.
I look forward to adding HoI 4 to my Paradox collection! Keep up the good work.
My only question, what are the resources (iron, rubber, whatever) tied too, random no name provinces? fraction of states controlled? And will there be more states with extra resources to get (so as to add a strategic point to more places on the map, like Africa, the Mid-East etc...)
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I agree it might help if it was confirmed that there was vital information in the 3D models, such that turning them off and leaving that in the base game could potentially confuse general customers (while people getting counter mods are generally going to be a bit more informed), but if this was a game by EA, Activision, Ubisoft or a bunch of others they would just give us the dev diary, we’d be lucky to get any responses to our questions, and any that we did get would be in corporate speak (no Von Rundstedt dolls to speak of
We also know that a visual mod to have a counters-only set-up won’t mess with the checksum (so presumably won’t mess up ironman or achievements or what-have-you) so beyond it requiring a bit of work by an enthusiast group (adjust the shaders for the models, reposition the counters – all being well by using the model coordinates so not requiring edits for every province), you won’t be missing out on anything, and we know from some posts that there are people that will put together counter-only mods.
So the team who are getting paid to produce a game get their vision of the game, but have made the effort so that with a little modding people who want NATO symbols only can have them, people that want models-only can presumably have them. How is this not a good response?
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I drank too much wine last night and if I then post (which I should not) I get carried away.
I will calm down.
Here's a non-counter serious question regarding modding. Suppose I want to add a VP. Let's say, York, in England. How do I go about having that VP named? Is that going to be easy, or hard? If I set a province # as having X VPs, is there going to be an easy way to give that province a name?
Eh, it just depends on writing. It will be bad for AARs that are like "I moved a division to Klang" but let's be honest - without a map, that is not a useful reference. Most of the HOI III community won't be able to place Klang or Cox's Bazaar any random province anyway. So you'd need to provide a picture. It's the same thing.
The day and night cycle is going to get very annoying at fast speeds,better when it was in the minimap. the FOW is going to be annoying to look at while making plans, I hope those cities also turn their lights off during wartime too.
Also allow us to use NATO counters, i'm not too keen on having to buy a million skins like HoI3.
Also allow us to use NATO counters, i'm not too keen on having to buy a million skins like HoI3.
Podcat confirmed day and night will be disabled at faster speeds.
FOW will be less dense when zoomed in but they are still playing with it to stop it obscuring during plans.
Cities don't turn their lights off.
You will be receiving nato counters, Just because DLC exists you don't have to buy it.
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