HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]

[porta80]

Good Job Podcat!

Map looks nice. I Like it.

 

[JKComposer]

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Secret Master]

I just wanted to clarify something:

Podcat says you can click on the icons for more information when you have a big stack of them (or when zoomed out, causing them to be a big stack).

Am I correct in assuming that the number by the armor icon is the number of armored divisions present? And am I correct in assuming that if I click on, say, the armor icons, I can get a detailed analysis of the composition of those divisions?

 

[Admiral Piett]

The new map is very pretty, that is for sure.

 

[Dark Jakkaru]

Really appreciate the time it took to explain counters Podcat, thanks! The outline of the unit styled counter isn't a bad choice either and one that is more likely to be familiar to the wider gaming audience.

I like the new look and feel to the map that makes it more distinct looking and closer to a modern 30s appeal than the old HOI 3 now crusty appearance when looked at side by side with the much better looking map and graphics. I do like how the minor cities now pop-up so that you can read them more naturally than the old way of looking at them in the province having to read them in odd ways. Nice touch.

Keep up the good work!

 

[fabius]

The rivers following the province borders is overdue, have two types with different crossing effects is great.

The map and atmosphere that you're aiming for does come through a little in the screens. Well done artists !!

I tired of clicking back and forth map modes so used to stay in political. Looks like you've solved that

With HoI I always use NATO counters. But, I like the look of your new way to present it of having counter information an eye candy so will give it a go.

Weather on the map, "Hussar!" will really help feel like Russian winter is having and impact.


Bravo, every DD so far looks like outstanding work and a worthy march forward with the HoI franchise.

 

[Joppos]

Chain of command in HOI3 was pretty dumb also. What was the purpose of all those HQ units on the map outside of causing a battle delay? Not to mention this was another human only exploit. Some claimed it added to immersion but many others said it was micromanagement hell.

Yes, HQ units were dumb and the hoi3 system was bad. However with 500 divisions on a front--and considering battle plan and equipment systems at that--it would be real nice to be able to design ones own small division groups of 2 - 10 divisions that could be the effective units you assign to orders (instead of having to make a custom division selection each time from unorganized larger groups), while still having those small groups be a part of larger groups for:

1) organizing your troops so you know where you have these smaller/special groups (for example knowing where you have a tank army consisting of your designed smaller division mixes) and can easily access them with a few clicks when a plan needs modifying or such, as well as being able to maintain good ratios of those small groups on different parts of the front and not suddenly realize that all armor have gravitated towards one part. This would be difficult with only independent groups.

2) easy assignment/ordering, in that you can simply select a larger group, and allocate the small groups within it to arrows (or just the whole larger group to one arrow) without having to manually make sure the right divisions go in the right groups each time. This also enabling so that one larger element of your forces stays mostly in the same area going for the same general goal if the player desires so (would require much more player effort with only independent groups). Also issuing larger orders like advancing or going on the defensive would be neat if you could just tell the uppermost level, and all the groups below would follow that.

3) upgrade/reinforcement parameters, so that you can assign specific requests to a large group, and set some different parameters for the smaller groups within that like for example telling armeegruppe C to halt reinforcing men and new tanks, except 3. pz.armee or pz.corps which should get high priority for all men and new tanks.

Having to do these things individually for many independent groups would be unnecessary hasslehof.

 

[Modestus]

While I'm used to playing board games I also learned in life to be open to trying new and different things. I can tell Podcat cares about the game. He enjoys playing HOI games. So I am more than willing to give this a shot. Those writing off the game saying they will never buy it are making an emotional choice right now. As Spock says there are two possibilities:

1) The design will work as Podcat intends and the game well worth buying.
2) The design fails to meet the intended design goals and few buy the game.

To claim you know for a fact that #2 is reality means you can predict the future. People have every right to be skeptical. Hell I'm a big skeptic in many things. But a skeptic is not someone that is a fanatic or ideologue but instead is someone that requires proof and yet willing to be shown that proof.

There are so many great things we have seen about HOI4. While I might be a skeptic on how models will actually work I'm also willing to wait to find out without saying I'll never buy this game. Who knows it might actually turn out to be the best game PDS has ever created. Time will tell. That's just my opinion.

EDIT:
Maybe the :sad: list got longer but let's also keep in mind the list.
1) New air combat mechanism that is way more accurate
2) New division builder that is many times better than any previous HOI game.
3) While not much ahs been shown the resources and how production ahs drastically improved.
4) Country specific goals and ideas.
5) Big improvements in naval combat.

Plus others.

If you don’t like sprites then it does not matter how much the game play is improved , I cannot and I will not invade the USSR with a 100 or more little soldiers because to me that will look absolutely ridiculous. I don’t want to see them firing at each other, I don’t want to see the recoil of a tank firing its gun because to me it will just look childish.

There is almost nothing about the map that says to me that this is a game about WWII, Germany looks barren , no roads, no railways not even the names of provinces nothing besides a few 3D buildings to make you feel that this is the 20th century.

I can deal with that but to have a division represented by single toy soldier not a hope in hell.

 

[jodirola]

If you don’t like sprites then it does not matter how much the game play is improved , I cannot and I will not invade the USSR with a 100 or more little soldiers because to me that will look absolutely ridiculous. I don’t want to see them firing at each other, I don’t want to see the recoil of a tank firing its gun because to me it will just look childish.

There is almost nothing about the map that says to me that this is a game about WWII, Germany looks barren , no roads, no railways not even the names of provinces nothing besides a few 3D buildings to make you feel that this is the 20th century.

I can deal with that but to have a division represented by single toy soldier not a hope in hell.

+1000000

 

[ikeokp]

One Question:
Will we now be able to see destruction on the map?
Example: Cities gone dark after a bombing, craters/darkened surface after a tough fight and/or bombing. Factories/cities ablaze after bombing/fighting?

Imagine I am the British and I am watching the German steamroll the Russians under the fog of war. All I will see is burning cities for miles. EPIC.

 

[debozewolf]

:sad: no divisional leaders
:sad: no hierarchical chain of command
:sad: no province names!
:sad: no option to play with Hoi3-like 3D counters.

Has actually anybody confirmed yet there will be no Chain of Command? Just a matter of panicing at the right time.

 

[Centurion1973]

Thanks Podcat!!!

So far I love almost everything I saw in DDs. HoI4 looks like it will be awesome (and thats from someone, who was really really angry at state of HoI3 after release and patches).

 

[Reficul]

Hello,

As for the graphics, will there be a difference between equipment variant graphics (stug III vs panzer III)?

Thanks!

 

[Gamer_1745]

Has actually anybody confirmed yet there will be no Chain of Command? Just a matter of panicing at the right time.

Yes, what has been shown to us has no Chain of Command. Some of us have held out hope that with feedback we have given they might/are rethinking some sort of CoC.

 

[wotanbrunilda]

we will always Black ICE

I like many things about the new game, but there are things that seem to have been removed and that gave me more immersion. I'm looking forward to see the end result but I'm optimistic

 

[Roggle_Dorn]

we will always Black ICE

Sarcastic comment or not they are my only hope. I just wonder if even their highly talented team can sort out this mess.

 

[PlacidDragon]

Has actually anybody confirmed yet there will be no Chain of Command? Just a matter of panicing at the right time.

Yes.

Unless i've missed something in the last weeks, it'll work like this (from what we've been shown, along with comments from podcat and DarkRenown) :

1. Lasso a bunch of divisions.
2. Hold CTRL and hit a number from 1 through 0 (standard C&C type RTS grouping). Or maybe it was a "create army" button, i am in denial on the subject, so i've forgotten
3. Select a General to lead it (Generals have various command limits on how many divisions they can lead)
4. Generals portrait will appear on the lower right for ease of selecting the army (it will also be assigned a color).

And thats basically it.

You can read up on some of it in this thread.

 

[Soapy Frog]

Counters.
So when designing hoi4 we decided we wanted both a pretty model that could show stuff a counter couldnt (stances, tech levels, maybe more) and a counter below it giving you as much information as quickly and completely as possible.

I respectfully disagree. Stance and tech level should be shown on the counter with a number, letter or directional arrow. If I have to quint at a model to try and figure out what tech level it is or what direction it is facing, then I won't really be able to enjoy the game. In HoI3, the tech level could be deduced from the relative strength indicators and the movement direction of the counters was also well indicated as well as their supply status and attack delay status, and this could be seem out to quite a high zoom level. What happens in HoI4 when I am zoomed out to the point where the model is not discernable? The counters need to hold all this information in a quick, easy to see manner, and if the couners do have that info the model is superfulous unless you like the graphics (which is fine if you do! but some of us prefer less clutter).

HoI3 style counters stopped being useful when zooming out, or when stacks were too big, so our new counter system can summarize information for you in a much better way. They will stack by category so that you can see how much of a stack is made up of armor for example, as well as when zooming out instead of overlapping into a giant mess like in previous games they combine to show a summarized stack over areas.

Yes I think your new counter system is fine, great even. But this makes the models all the more superfluous.

Please don't make me squint at models to try and tell the difference between Level 2 and level 3 infantry. I'm too old now for such things, I just need a number indicator that can be seen at a reasonable birds eye view. Please don't make me squint at a model of a tank to figure out what direction its going. How is this information represented when the models are too small to easily see?

You can either make a 2d overlay like we have currently, so the only difference would be to turn off the 3d models. I am not going to do something I feel adds nothing and just makes the game ugly, but I am sure someone will make a mod that does this.

In complex wargame design clarity trumps beauty. It's ok to have beautiful things, but ultimately it must be immediately clear what a thing is. What you judge to be "uglier" many of us would judge to be "more useful" and therefore better.

A 2D overlay with no 3D models would actually be the ideal way to play a large complex wargame such as this, especially one unfolding in real time where rapid recognition of map elements and units (and their condition) is vital.

I also feel there is a large overlap between this crowd and people who only want a 2d map as well. These people I am sad to say we will never be able to make happy with the release of hoi4. A 2d game is possible to make, but its not a game anyone in the team wants to make, or that has a chance of selling as much as a nicer looking 3d one. If you are in this camp, get together and make a 2d mod. Its definitely possible, but its a lot of work we really cant justify doing if we want to keep making games and not starve on the streets.

I fear this is the crux of the problem, people value shiny above utility in video games, and you are right a more utilitarian interface might not sell as well. But at the same time... it really does not seem to be that difficult to satisfy both camps. At this point I do feel like a discarded old dinosaur, where even the fairly simple proposition of switching between iconography and fancy graphics is deemed too much trouble, even though it existed in all previous titles.

if there is enough interest there is of course the possibility of DLC, but as I tried to explain above, its not easy to make something that is better or just as good.

I think you are using "better" in a subjective sense. It is very very easy to make something that is better or just as good, but that look uglier to your eye. on the other hand such a thing might still make the game play better and actually be more accessible to people who have trouble telling apart 3d models. Even telling apart a char b and a panther will be difficult for some, let alone trying to figure out which appearance of a 3d infantry man represents which tech level. If you realize that stance and tech are better represented numerically and iconographically, then it's hard to see what benefit 3d models bring except eye candy for those who like it. Sometimes simpler is better.

Thanks for your time! I think HoI4 is shaping up great in general.

 

[Soapy Frog]

1) The design will work as Podcat intends and the game well worth buying.
2) The design fails to meet the intended design goals and few buy the game.

To claim you know for a fact that #2 is reality means you can predict the future. People have every right to be skeptical. Hell I'm a big skeptic in many things. But a skeptic is not someone that is a fanatic or ideologue but instead is someone that requires proof and yet willing to be shown that proof.

Problem is to know if #1 is really true I have to buy the game which then is taken as a sign of "great success". It's the catch-22 Yossarian.

 

[misiame]

Thank god. I hate staring at a flat map. Bores the hell out of me, especially for a game that I'll no doubt spend hours staring at.

And the models look great! Love the counter/sprite mix you have going on. Absolutely perfect for the game IMO.