HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]

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podcat

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I like how everyone knows what HoI is supposed to be about, except the developers making it :D

its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.
 

Roggle_Dorn

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its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.
Well as nice as it is to know you ignore customers feedback based on your feelings I must ask you who told you you must do something?
I have seen several posts saying there was no reason not to, that it would be trivial to do so, and that it will be the deciding factor on a purchase, but I have not seen anyone saying you must do anything.
 

Jamey

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We'll be doing a video at some point as most of this doesnt really show very well in still pictures (particularly rain and snow and such)

As FOARP said what you see under the units we call counters. They are much better than showing stacks of hoi3 style counters because they can show a lot more information easily. We'll definitly make a version with NATO style though.
I like the 3D models, but I'd prefer to play HOI4 with counter to replace them. Counters relay more information at a glance. They also provide immersion as they are more like what a period general would have seen on their map.

Pretty much. Personally, I just don't get the idea that the way in which units are represented on-map is so all-important - so long as you can see the necessary information in a reasonably attractive way, it's job-done as far as I am concerned. For me, where I really have concerns is the battle-planner and AI - the game will live and die on actual gameplay.

We like counters. We dislike sprites for this type of game, regardless of how attractive or informational the sprites are.

I am happy if there are nice sprites and they help sell the game. I hope I don't have to use them because I prefer counters.

Why not any other Military Group that uses their own designs? And arent NATO counters totally unfitting as NATO is clearly post WW2? I am profoundly confused.
As others have noted, NATO are standardized for international use from the US Army symbols used in (and before) WW2. It may not beerfectly period for all countries, but it is better than giving each country their own historically accurate counters.

They aren't. They've even repeatedly said counters are in. You don't have to use models if you don't want to.

Podcat even said the magic word in a post in this very thread: NATO

EDIT: While I really prefer counters because I like the old-school feel, I'd also be more interested in models/sprites if those things contain more information than in HOI3.

Which is also something podcat said they were implementing.
What Podcast said was vague, but suggests that the existing icons with the bars on them are the counters.

Personally, I'm waiting to see a screenshot of the NATO counters before voicing a strong opinion. It's so easy to misinterpret what is being said, and a picture would be worth about a thousand less posts arguing about it. :)
 

Modestus

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dizzle3

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its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.

Yes, some people are taking this very personally.

I suppose your lack of comment on the counters argument which has spoiled a great DD thread means it hasn't been finalized yet?

Can you tell us anything that would quiet down the mass hysteria?
-Can the little helmet/tank/artillery pictures be modded into NATO counters for those people who prefer the board game feel
-is there an option ingame to use counters all the time rather than sprites?
-will modders be able to change stuff to remove the sprites if desired?
-will modders be able to do transparent textures on the sprites as a last resort?


And on the actual content of the DD:
-what's the difference between wind sock and airplane symbol?
-ditto with the green circle on ports?
-what are the menu headers?
-what are the map view buttons?
 

AgentPaper

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its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.

But as a game developer, you *must* read our recommendations and take them into account so that you can...

Wait, crap.
 

Modestus

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its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.

Well is there an option to just have counters and no 3D models?

A simple question from a potential customer about your game.
 

SergeantPunch

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Has anyone noticed what a big improvement the figures are compared with hoi3? I really do like them and yeah I mean this video demonstration I believe is happening tomorrow will be the time to give a more informed opinion.
 

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But as a game developer, you *must* read our recommendations and take them into account so that you can...

Wait, crap.

The problem though is there is no "we". You only speak for yourself and some others. It's just bullying to shove your view as speaking for all of us or all buyers. Most of us trust those making the game to make it nice. I really for me personally haven't seen it in enough detail or indeed as a finished product to comment much or enforce a list of demands.

Except. Make France stronger or there will be a revolution.
 

FOARP

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Balesir

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Blimey, this thread got way too long and full of rude rants pretty quick - my eyes were glazed over for about the last 8 pages...

It's funny, but even as someone brought up on "proper" wargames (i.e. ones played with metal figures and models on a large tabletop, not itty bitty cardboard chits) I have generally preferred the "counters" option to date. HoI3 I thought hit a nice compromise - counters at zoom-out, with sprites as you zoomed in (and the distance of zoom for sprites being configurable). HoIIV, though, seems to be headed right at the sweet spot. At zoom-out, all I want is the counter data - general type and numbers of troops. Zoomed right in, the sort of information available from a really nice model - the type and model of the predominant version of armoured vehicle, the actual detailed arm of service of the foot troops present - will become useful. In other words, the level of detail visible will generally suit the zoom level of the view.

On top of that, it looks stunning, too - right down to the warm deserts and cold snow. Night view is cool - though I hope the change in day/night pattern with seasons is handled properly (as it wasn't in any previous HoI), and I hope civil defence decisions kill the city lights at night...

The only other worry I have is that the fog of war doesn't hide the wrong stuff. In HoI3 FoW hid Infrastructure levels, even in peacetime. Missing enemy troops in a province with reconnaissance just means their camo and dispersion was OK - missing roads and railways means the recce crews are both blind and have defective cameras... Not to mention the spies that get lost travelling in peacetime! In short, please let us see at least what was in the provinces in terms of buildings and infrastructure when last we had free access there through the FoW.
 

vidmizz

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Speaking of graphics are you going to finally stop including the Hammer and Sickle in your games? I think it's in fairly poor taste to allow the display of such a symbol of hatred and mass murder.
No, they should keep it. But to make it fair they have to include a Swastika too. If they think there is no shame in using symbols of drunk, rapist mass murderers they should not be ashamed to use a swastika as well
 

Gamer_1745

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And everyone thought that when the topic for this DD was announced they were disinterested. Even if the discussion is limited to the map (which I think looks very good, but I am not sure it is the map I want to play on) and the 3D models ( also think look very nice and if this was a tactical level game I would want to used them) there is much to say!

With the apparent demand I would humbly suggest that Paradox announce a 2D map DLC. I do not think they are wrong to think many (maybe even most) would prefer the nice 3D map and it will help sales. Having an early announcement of a 2D map DLC would keep many core players happy & supportive. They might even be able to find a HoI3 map modder with talent to make it if Paradox's people are busy on other things.
 

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its ok. Whenever someone tell me what I *must do* I just stop reading their posts. Its just very rude and not how you go about giving feedback at all if you want to be taken seriously.

Damn. I was hoping you would do the opposite of what the person wanted. That way, I could post the following demands.

"Podcat, you MUST implement a division building system that includes dinosaurs and special nerfs for the French!"

"Podcat, you MUST implement a leader system with insufficient leaders for China and the Soviet Union!"

"Podcat, you MUST implement a trade system that lets the Axis stockpile enough rares and oil to sustain them until 1945!"

;)

A serious question:

Can country colors change based on faction or ruling party? Like, if Germany is "liberated" by the Soviets and forced to be a COMINTERN puppet, will it switch to a shade of red?
 

FOARP

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What about the butchers apron? That should go too. :p

Personally I'm still smarting over Bannockburn/Judy Murray's dancing, and believe the Saltire should be banned as well!

I am sick and tired of people asking for simple things that should be in from the get-go to be sold separately.
A 2d map should either be an option from release or a mod. It should not cost a dime.

What I'm getting here is that:

1) You demand that work be taken out of the game because you don't like it.
2) You demand that this be done for free.
 
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