Collective personal taste decides markets. It decides art, in fact. If you like them that is also due to personal taste.
HoIIV - Developer Diary 11 - Map & Graphics -[ NO COUNTERS DISCUSSION ]
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Yes +1! This is not a FPS game! Paradox you think new buyers will be attracted? I hope so.
I would prefer the developer time go into the AI. Or, how about displaying counters of a stack with an animated sequence of which one is shown on top of stack so that all units can be seen just by watching the province animation sequence? How about a super zoom mode that shows all the underlying brigades and/or battalions that comprise the units using their NATO symbols? Will there be hot keys to temporarily hide counters so we can see the underlying map without obstruction? Or alternately you could have the counters "blink" on and off so you can see the underlying map without having to do anything. Fog of war only needs to have some indication that limited or no enemy data is being displayed. Incomplete counters lacking data works for partial fog of war. If you are going to use fog banks, please allow a much better view of the underlying terrain and any other features that would normally appear on the map. How about showing rail "lines" in provinces with infrastructure that is high enough to mean rail is present, with say, single rail line for level 5-6, and multi-rail lines for higher infrastructure, and "broken" rail symbols for areas that have temporary infrastructure damage that effects rail. How about having little industry icons that depend on the level of industry in a province? How about a region highlight effect such as crosshatch red lines for cut off regions that are out of supply or have low isolated supply? How about making your port and airport icons be different depending of the level of structure? If you must use the little graphic unit figures, how about a little bubble window that is line connected to each figure that lists all the additional data that would normally appear on a NATO counter? How about animated symbols such as moving arrows that shows every possible action the unit could be taking - (be it moving, attacking, retreating, entrenching, entraining, detraining, loading, unloading, rebuilding, in reserve, repairing or building)? (Not part of the battle plan system, but an inherent part of the display system indicating actions/modes of all units at all times?). We are strategic war gamers and alternate history buffs first, not FPS action gamers. We want DATA that means something, not artistic eye candy for its own sake. How about a transparent color overlay that represents the level of supply on the map? How about main strategic bridges icons and damaged bridge icons?
How about a mapping/graphics system based on 3d polar coordinates like Google Earth uses? Zooming available to what ever level desired. Get rid of all the problems associated with a rectangular map systems. Use actual latitude/longitude/elevation for everything and plot the map the same way Google Earth does it?
Move over Van Gough this maps a masterpiece
Im going to play it till Ive got a Fog of War in my brain.
I think the sprites look cool and can understand the appeal they have for many people, but I will be using counters. Once you have learnt what the counters symbolise they are very easy to use. Sprites are just too cartoonish for my taste.
Im going to play it till Ive got a Fog of War in my brain.
I think the sprites look cool and can understand the appeal they have for many people, but I will be using counters. Once you have learnt what the counters symbolise they are very easy to use. Sprites are just too cartoonish for my taste.
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Stuff that Paradox really have to get right:
1) AI
2) The battle planner
3) logistics
....
96) NATO symbols
How many artists do you know who can code AI? And how many AI coders can create good art?
Slaughtering millions and being sick from art. It is true that Paradox gamers are weird bunch
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I think will (maybe it is just wishful thinking) a counters only version. I also think they haven't fully work it out yet so they are correctly not saying things that are not yet finalized. If they haven't decided yet to have a NATO style only version/view then they will have major reaction by many that aren't regular HOI IV forum viewers that will give HOI IV a bad name.
I do think they are correct that many people (maybe more than want counters) will want 3D models & 3D map and would not buy a game with 2D map & counters only (however good the game is). The negative reaction to the 3D map (not the quality, but just any 3D map) by many of the hardcore HoI fans is not reflective the many new people they want to try HOI IV, but they are a major part of the core of fans. It is best not to lose any part of your core fan base!
but turkey's eastern parts are snowy too
i mean snow doesnt melts for 6 months there
i mean snow doesnt melts for 6 months there
Devil's Advocate:
The problem with the so-called NATO counters is the fact that the various mods seemed to find different definitions for some of the unit types (compared to HoI). Therefore, the argument that the counters represent a unified set of definitions is false. Whenever I d/l a new mod, I had to relearn all of the different symbols.
The problem with figures in the HoI games was the absolutely terrible way that they overlapped when there were more than one type in a single province. The jumble of soldiers half-torso rising out of the tops of tanks look awful. So long as HoI follows the tradition of other Paradox game (one figure per province), I don't see that its a problem for my taste.
I can't imagine that it would be a big deal to offer a switch to turn off the figurines.
OR, would it be possible to have a soldier figure, a tank figure, a support unit figure, ... and a single-province figure that shows the soldiers, tanks and support in a neat little package? You can do that, can't you?
... why is this a problem? Or is it a problem? Are you sure this isn't just a function of "Work In Progress" and we are not going to be told about options that are not yet decided? Having said that, stating your preference is good, and FRIENDLY debate about details is also good.
The problem with the so-called NATO counters is the fact that the various mods seemed to find different definitions for some of the unit types (compared to HoI). Therefore, the argument that the counters represent a unified set of definitions is false. Whenever I d/l a new mod, I had to relearn all of the different symbols.
The problem with figures in the HoI games was the absolutely terrible way that they overlapped when there were more than one type in a single province. The jumble of soldiers half-torso rising out of the tops of tanks look awful. So long as HoI follows the tradition of other Paradox game (one figure per province), I don't see that its a problem for my taste.
I can't imagine that it would be a big deal to offer a switch to turn off the figurines.
OR, would it be possible to have a soldier figure, a tank figure, a support unit figure, ... and a single-province figure that shows the soldiers, tanks and support in a neat little package? You can do that, can't you?
... why is this a problem? Or is it a problem? Are you sure this isn't just a function of "Work In Progress" and we are not going to be told about options that are not yet decided? Having said that, stating your preference is good, and FRIENDLY debate about details is also good.
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GUI has been a priority aspect of any design for more than two decades.
I would be shocked if the sprites are neither possible to change as a game option and not possible for a modder to remove from the game. I think the devs have got the message, some people like them and some people don't, so allow people to be able to choose.
Back to the screenshots
Hand grabbing spanner
Cogs and conical flask
Outstretched arm
Tank and down arrow
Pen and book
Box with circular arrows
Guesses?
Top right corner
Soldier anchor plane
Fuel can
Flag
Flame
Box
Guesses?
Back to the screenshots
Hand grabbing spanner
Cogs and conical flask
Outstretched arm
Tank and down arrow
Pen and book
Box with circular arrows
Guesses?
Top right corner
Soldier anchor plane
Fuel can
Flag
Flame
Box
Guesses?
While you are correct that counters with NATO symbols on them are 'post modern' you fail to realize some things:
1) A lot of us grew up playing tabletop games that used counters with NATO symbols, so it is what we know.
2) The NATO symbols are themselves based on the symbols used by the US Army Corps of Engineers on their maps starting in 1917, and as far as I can tell none of the changes (rectangular for friendly, diamond for enemy, quatrefoil for unknown, square for neutral) between the systems would show up in the game.
This work is done by the 3D artist (look at the introduction of the DD) so I doubt much time is wasted, although I do admit money might've been wasted on unnecessary details, that's not to say that it doesn't look nice.
Can't really dictate paradox on how to manage their company though.
+1.
Also it seems that while discussing counters many people have forgot how awesome new graphics (terrain and fog of war) are. The new combined terrain-political map mode is a huge improvement adds lot more to the game. The new graphics are quite high quality and they hold their own when compared to other contemporary strategy games. I think it is quite a feat that paradox managed to make graphics as good as many AAA titles with only 4-5 developers .
The plural of 'personal opinion' is 'personal opinions', not 'factual statements' It's like me and some other forumers asking you why you have such a horrible username. It just makes no sense.
+1
Which is why I think it's sad that every thread like this gets deralied by people who basically just sit there yelling "giev counters!!!" or or that matter "but but i dont like this art direction!!!" when there are so many things in the screenshots that could be discussed.
Production
Research
Diplomacy
?
?
?
Land sea and air map modes?
Resource
Diplomatic
Dissent
Supply
Map modes?
I have also noticed that snow perfectly follows Soviet Union's borders. I hope (dynamic) weather system will be implemented before release. However this is still better than HoI 3 weather system. I don't think they could make it worse.
Eh? How you interact with the game is of paramount importance, if the UI and informational feedback aspects of the game aren't doing their job then you won't get much enjoyment out of it and will probably shelve it after a short while. It's all well and good having something accessible and easy to use, but if doesn't at a glance give you the information you need without having to do more clicking to find it out then it has failed.
You can have all the great gameplay mechanics you like in the game, but if they aren't presented well, easy to access, and especially in a game like this, give you instant visual feedback, then it will fail. That's why it's important.
I think the scale of the discussion around this stems from how much counter are taken for granted by many HoI players coupled with them being such a minor thing to implement. Which leaves many people baffled at how Paradox talks around this issue or outright ignores it.
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My take on UI speculation:
Top row is National Unity, then Leadership/Research power or Political Points, then manpower, IC, and finally convoys and escort ships.
Second row is production, research, diplomacy, the division builder and unit deployment, possibly a ledger with information about your empire, units and whatnot, and the crate with the arrows probably has to do with trade or logistics.
The icons in the top-right corner could be settings for the ledger.
Top row is National Unity, then Leadership/Research power or Political Points, then manpower, IC, and finally convoys and escort ships.
Second row is production, research, diplomacy, the division builder and unit deployment, possibly a ledger with information about your empire, units and whatnot, and the crate with the arrows probably has to do with trade or logistics.
The icons in the top-right corner could be settings for the ledger.
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