HOI4 Piercing/Armor Reference Table

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Secret Master

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People should need to actually put effort into AT if they're going to be facing armor divisions.

You do, if you are facing someone who knows how to build panzer divisions.

It seems that your complaint is really that the AI is bad, not that the mechanics are bad. The arms race between piercing and armor ratings can be really intense, especially because Germany can cheese Panthers so easily long before attacking the Soviet Union.
 

Alex_brunius

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No - it's certainly not insurmountable but it is a really big deal. Especially as it represents instant win vs AI (Of which 85% of games are played).

40 width artillery heavy divisions also represents insta win vs the AI...
Digging in and defending and letting the AI slaughter itself on your defensive lines also represents insta win vs the AI...
Building high hardness divisions also represents insta win vs the AI...
Building fast divisions to encircle them also represents insta win vs the AI...
Building massed CAS also represents insta win vs the AI...
Leaving a hole in your lines for the AI to run into a trap so you can cut them of and destroy them again and again and again also represents insta win vs the AI...


Likewise - the combat effectiveness of full LARM/ARM/MEC divisions lose a big advantage that they really should have because a division has a support AT company - even though that amount of guns would make virtually no difference IRL.

No they don't. Proper Medium Armor divisions with MEC support are not possible to pierce only by support AT, especially not variant improved armor. You need more historical amounts with 1-3 line AT as well (depending on techs and Tank divisions designs).

Light arm should be easy to defend against even with obsolete or small amounts of AT guns, since they had paper armor.

It's also not true to say that fewer guns made "virtually no difference" IRL, due to the conscept of diminishing returns. The first AT gun a division has (even if it only has a single one) will be put at the most useful spot where they expect or have seen armor advance and where it can do the best damage, every gun added after it will be less and less effective, both because the enemy becomes aware of their existance, and because they need to be deployed to other less effective spots. I think the armor/piercing mechanic represents this diminishing returns mechanic fairly well.
 

KiwiNoob

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You do, if you are facing someone who knows how to build panzer divisions.

It seems that your complaint is really that the AI is bad, not that the mechanics are bad. The arms race between piercing and armor ratings can be really intense, especially because Germany can cheese Panthers so easily long before attacking the Soviet Union.

There are two things going on here. If I might re-phrase my thinking:

The armor 'bonus' is more of a malus than a bonus. It's the games way of punching you in the face for bringing a knife to a gun fight in terms of AT.

The first problem is that as a result of the way division stats are calculated the game is too generous. An infantry division typically had ~100 AT guns while in-game you can avoid the face punch by bringing only 24-36. What the current mechanics (in terms of calculating armor/piercing) lead to is more of a 'Don't forget to pack your AT support company' instead of making a meaningful decision about the amount of AT to bring.

It's not correct that such a small and historically inaccurate amount of AT can avoid the armor penalty.

In a single player game (85%) of games. I have never put more than a support company of AT into an INF division as it's sufficient to avoid the armor penalty from LARM/ARM. If that's the case (and is probably true for many people) then it's just an obligation as opposed to a choice with pro's and cons.



The second problem is that the system can be easily gamed against the AI by dropping an ARM/HARM (or TD variant) into an INF division. This a combination of poor division design and the inability to maintain equipment levels.
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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Light arm should be easy to defend against even with obsolete or small amounts of AT guns, since they had paper armor.

False. No gun = no piercing.

I don't care if obsolete AT can pierce LARM but you need to have enough of it. You're belief that 24 over a whole division is enough is not only wrong but contrary to the conclusions reached by the people actually fighting WW2 who felt 24 was very much too small.
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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I totally agree with you that a division with 0 guns should have zero piercing.

Great - because when you give an entire division 24 AT guns - even assuming none are destroyed and none are broken - 0 AT guns is what almost your whole front line will be fighting with.

So we agree that 24 guns should provide a division with virtually no piercing.

Good to see you finally listening to reason.
 

Alex_brunius

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24 = 0

images
 

KiwiNoob

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24 AT guns for an entire division = everyone gets a gun

upload_2017-4-27_13-27-3.png
 

JerkyJerry

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Eating-Popcorn-Soda.gif


Great stuff guys!
The only thing I need to know at this point is.......
"You sir are the HOI4 version of an EFT warrior."
What that mean?

Now back to our show!
 

KiwiNoob

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Those two posts are a nice TLDR; of the discussion so far ;)

EFT Warrior is a term from EVE Online. EFT (EVE Fitting Tool) is an app that lets players mock up ship builds to see how they look before actually making them.

An EFT Warrior is someone who spends a lot of time making 'ultimate' ship builds without ever testing them in-game to see if they actually work and as a result their 'ultimate' builds are mostly rubbish (E.g. Ships with an obscene amount of damage but the guns track so slowly they cant actually hit anything).

The HOI4 equivalent (A "DD Warrior" perhaps?) is making divisions in the division designer or making assumptions based on theoretical division stats without testing it in game to see if it actually works.

The example here being Alex telling me that according to the division designer all of my INF+TD divisions could be easily pierced by SU divisions despite being shown screenshots from in-game showing the contrary.

One big mistake people can make is that the division designer shows optimal stats based on the most advanced equipment available. In reality almost all divisions are a hodge-podge of new and old equipment and in some cases missing equipment.
 

daemonofdecay

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Again, I think the problem is that you're trying to hard to apply a real world equivalent to heavily abstracted combat. With the system designed as it is, there is no way to avoid ahistorical, ridiculous results.

Again, a Sherman giving an armor bonus to infantry is absurd - they don't all hide behind it shooting around the sides. But it also makes no sense for the Sherman to get weaker, its armor less protective, just because you add another brigade to the division.

Yes, the bonus from adding a single detachment of TDs is absurd. But so would be taking the average and watching your TDs losing protection whenever you add more infantry. Neither one makes sense if you're trying to compare it to reality - so it's best to just focus on what works in a gameplay sense, since that's what they were designed for.

Just explain how would improve the gameplay, reality be damned - since neither option makes much sense in real life.
 

KiwiNoob

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And I'm not arguing against the way the division stats are calculated only that instead of a weighting of 30% highest + 70% average it be might be better as 20% highest + 80% average.

Remember that the 'highest' value is also included when working out the average so the effect is this change impacts smaller division less while large divisions will receive a smaller bonus from having only a single battalion/support company of something (as it should be - in larger divisions the battalion/company would be spread thinner).



Coupled with making the armor bonus/malus being more of a tier system (pierces easily, can pierce, trouble piercing, don't even bother shooting at it) instead of a simple on/off.
 

Praetori

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Making it binary instead of a scaling bonus/malus is a bad idea because you get into silly situations where 0.5 armor or 0.5 piercing makes an enormous difference in combat effectiveness.
No gun = no piercing.
This is a bit contradictory. The first is not silly as armor against an opponent with too low piercing to deal with armor frontally is going to be in trouble and will have to spend considerable combat effort to crack those AFVs. Mobility kills, mines, artillery, grenades etc also count but are not as effective. Not being able to pierce your opponent effectively means you're always forced to fight in a certain way (unless you're stupid but then you'll lose).

Even light armor will maul infantry with no AT and their ability to fight off an armored opponent instead relies on terrain and tactics. That said, with handheld AT (mines, AT rifles, bazookas etc later on) you still have a decent ability to be successful but you're still forced to adapt so the 50% damage reduction is not over the top (and you still get to use a lot of your SA against opponents with low hardness).

Likewise - the combat effectiveness of full LARM/ARM/MEC divisions lose a big advantage that they really should have because a division has a support AT company - even though that amount of guns would make virtually no difference IRL. (A US infantry division had ~100 because it became obvious very early in the war AT was so important)
Counting AT guns (not bazookas and everything that goes under the infantry-tree but rather AT gun production and units) a US Infantry division had 57 AT guns.
An in-game division with 1 line AT and one support has 60.

A fully armored division that faces an opponent with AT weapons that can pierce its armor effectively is restricted to operating with that fact in regard. After the first few vehicles are knocked out they won't start a slugging match but instead chose another approach.
That on the other hand comes down to commanders skill, doctrines, experience etc and that's an area where the game is lacking. The combat "tactics" that are picked could be a lot more evolved to handle such situations depending on experience and doctrines.
I would like to see tactics that affect certain modifiers as that's basically what tactics are all about, making the best use of the equipment and manpower you have.

Ideally we would have combat tactics that enables an experienced division trained and operating under certain doctrines along with an experienced commander to not stonewall themselves against fierce armored and piercing opposition (say PzII/ IIIs vs Char B1s) but instead utilizes armored infiltration tactics, CAS (basically just hold and let CAS pound the baseline), flanking etc etc that modifies the modifiers. This is something I'm hoping for in future expansions or at least as modding support.

People should need to actually put effort into AT if they're going to be facing armor divisions.
You do because you need to get your HA up. Against high hardness divisions (ie not TD/INF) you need high HA and that's very hard to accomplish without large amounts of AT (piercing or not).


I don't care if obsolete AT can pierce LARM but you need to have enough of it. You're belief that 24 over a whole division is enough is not only wrong but contrary to the conclusions reached by the people actually fighting WW2 who felt 24 was very much too small.
Soldiers ALWAYS thinks there's too little hardware available, believe me. And it's true, you can never get enough stuff, but you make due.
That nice hill with good fields of fire for the infantry might not be as attractive if you only have enough AT to cover the road embankment and various village streets. You'll be forced to place that battalion elsewhere where they won't get mauled by armor, mine the place up and just leave a section of engineers and a FOB team (just as an example why you get penalties to the attack stats).
24 guns is better than no guns and they will be put to use where they are most needed, either overlooking channelizing terrain or/if where there is none (in order to force the armor to chose another route, preferably into prepared positions or channelizing terrain). Of course the more the merrier but there's no specific breaking point IRL, it just puts restrictions on how and how much you can utilize the rest of your force and thus the different armor modifiers are, IMO, not over the top.


All that said there's room for improvement and I personally would've gone about the combat mechanics in a different way. But then I'm not a game designer and the actual results that you get on-map with two divisions in combat is not wholly improbable.
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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This is a bit contradictory. The first is not silly as armor against an opponent with too low piercing to deal with armor frontally is going to be in trouble and will have to spend considerable combat effort to crack those AFVs. Mobility kills, mines, artillery, grenades etc also count but are not as effective. Not being able to pierce your opponent effectively means you're always forced to fight in a certain way (unless you're stupid but then you'll lose).

Even light armor will maul infantry with no AT and their ability to fight off an armored opponent instead relies on terrain and tactics. That said, with handheld AT (mines, AT rifles, bazookas etc later on) you still have a decent ability to be successful but you're still forced to adapt so the 50% damage reduction is not over the top (and you still get to use a lot of your SA against opponents with low hardness).


Counting AT guns (not bazookas and everything that goes under the infantry-tree but rather AT gun production and units) a US Infantry division had 57 AT guns.
An in-game division with 1 line AT and one support has 60.

A fully armored division that faces an opponent with AT weapons that can pierce its armor effectively is restricted to operating with that fact in regard. After the first few vehicles are knocked out they won't start a slugging match but instead chose another approach.

...

You do because you need to get your HA up. Against high hardness divisions (ie not TD/INF) you need high HA and that's very hard to accomplish without large amounts of AT (piercing or not).

You're under the assumption that weapons either pierce or not IRL which is not how things work. There are lots of factors that go into whether a round pierces or not. The armor of the target & where the round hits (all tanks had weak spots - even on their front armor), range, ammo type, the angle of the shot, the quality of the individual piece of ammunition (both of the charge and the round), etc...

Improving your guns, ammo, accuracy, crew training/experience increases the % chance that a shot will penetrate but it's not simply 'all shots penetrate' or 'no shots penetrate'. And there is a very big difference between being able to pierce frontal armor consistently in all places (much better piercing), being able to pierce frontal weak spots (roughly the same) and not even being able to pierce weak spots (lower piercing).

To reflect this the armor bonus should be split into those 3 categories - can pierce easily (no bonus), piercing is roughly the same or slightly lower (small bonus), piercing is a lot lower (full bonus).

The number of AT guns I've seen in a division was around 100 but ironically your number (~57) is pretty close to what I'm suggesting. At the moment a single support AT (24 guns) for a larger division is pretty much sufficient. The change I proposed would mean you'd probably need a support and line AT/two line AT's to avoid the armor malus against an ARM division.

And I'll also make the point (again) that the issue at the moment comes back to the number of guns. Yes, if an armor led attack runs into significant AT they'll back off but with only 24 guns across a whole division the chance of them running into those guns is extremely small. So small that it'll make very little difference to the front as a whole.

Hard attack at the moment plays almost no role in single player games (the vast majority of games). Even normal armor divisions with a mix of MOT/MEC/ARM have trouble getting hardness high enough to negate extremely high soft attack (I also suggested earlier that hardness of MOT/MEC/ARM should probably be tweaked upwards a bit) to make hard attack more relevant.
 

Praetori

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You're under the assumption that weapons either pierce or not IRL which is not how things work. There are lots of factors that go into whether a round pierces or not. The armor of the target & where the round hits (all tanks had weak spots - even on their front armor), range, ammo type, the angle of the shot, the quality of the individual piece of ammunition (both of the charge and the round), etc...
In a tactical environment yes but not on a grand strategy level, it comes down to statistics. As in, are the weapons in question capable of reliably piercing the opposing armour or not when looking at a large amount of samples. It's the basis of all AT and armour designs as well as training and operating procedures IRL.
If you need 4 hits with weapon X to statistically get a hard kill that knowledge will dictate everything from TOE to training and combat techniques.

Looking at other weaponsystems with softkill abilities, mobility kills etc there's sense in the SA mechanics since firepower is always firepower even when facing armor but the binary piercing mechanics (while not perfectly intuitive) is basically what makes the rest of the mechanics sensible.

I'm not convinced that more granularity would make the game better in that regard. There's already a sliding scale with equipment losses which pretty much does that.
 

KiwiNoob

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In a tactical environment yes but not on a grand strategy level, it comes down to statistics. As in, are the weapons in question capable of reliably piercing the opposing armour or not when looking at a large amount of samples. It's the basis of all AT and armour designs as well as training and operating procedures IRL.
If you need 4 hits with weapon X to statistically get a hard kill that knowledge will dictate everything from TOE to training and combat techniques.

Looking at other weaponsystems with softkill abilities, mobility kills etc there's sense in the SA mechanics since firepower is always firepower even when facing armor but the binary piercing mechanics (while not perfectly intuitive) is basically what makes the rest of the mechanics sensible.

I'm not convinced that more granularity would make the game better in that regard. There's already a sliding scale with equipment losses which pretty much does that.

Equipment loss is a totally different kettle of fish and is a more long term mechanic (in that being unable to maintain equipment levels will result is lower division strength).

Absolutely I agree that it comes down to statistics and have made that point earlier. When thinking about the effects of things it needs to be considered that this applies to the whole front/many points of engagement and not one or two locations - hence why the number of guns is my main gripe. Statistically, 24 guns will not make a significant impact on the whole engagement.

I'm not against the piercing mechanics - only that the lack of granularity is what makes it un-intuitive. A very small difference in armor or piercing suddenly makes a massive difference to the whole combat while in reality that's not the case. You might cross the border from easily being able to pierce armor to having more trouble but you wouldn't suddenly leap to absolutely unable to pierce.
 

Alex_brunius

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I'm not against the piercing mechanics - only that the lack of granularity is what makes it un-intuitive. A very small difference in armor or piercing suddenly makes a massive difference to the whole combat while in reality that's not the case.

In this case it's also a question of gameplay.

Historically there was an armor and piercing race going on between Germany and Soviet ( and to a lesser degree vs the allies as well ).

To promote such an armor race in HoI4 you need a big gain for just barley being able to get an edge. If you just get +1% boost from beating your enemy with a very small amount two strategies ( none of which is historical ) become logical to pursuit. Either ignore it totally or go for Super Heavy tanks to maximize the bonus, and depending on the exact balance of the values one of them will always be what is best.

To be honest I prefer the current balance, where if your enemy ignores AT you can get the bonus very cheaply, otherwise it becomes a race of technology and production that will be evenly matched with both sides struggling back and forth to get an edge.



Historically it is also was the case that when your tanks had strong enough frontal armor to bounce all enemy AT munitions even at point blank range they did gain a massive tactical advantage and were able to operate in a completely different manner and tempo also strategically. A similar effect from HoI4 also was present, in that if the tank armor was just a bit weaker then needed suddenly some AT shells start to go through (even if at close ranges), the tank crews can't charge all enemy positions with impunity but needs to advance slower, with more care and fight from longer range.
 

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Equipment loss is a totally different kettle of fish and is a more long term mechanic (in that being unable to maintain equipment levels will result is lower division strength).

Not really.

In the last MP game I played as Germany, equipment loss had a huge immediate impact on armor and piercing levels. Units do not receive equipment and manpower instantly even when they are in perfect supply. And when they are out of supply, or in poor supply, they are either losing equipment to attrition, not receiving their quota, or both. It was very rare in the intense tank battles around Vitebsk or in Turkey that either side had full equipment quotas in their armored divisions. This kept things rather complicated the entire war.
 

KiwiNoob

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Historically there was an armor and piercing race going on between Germany and Soviet ( and to a lesser degree vs the allies as well ).
Yes there was but I don't see how that has any bearing on this discussion. This is about improving the piercing/armor mechanic not weather there should be one.

To promote such an armor race in HoI4 you need a big gain for just barley being able to get an edge. If you just get +1% boost from beating your enemy with a very small amount two strategies ( none of which is historical ) become logical to pursuit. Either ignore it totally or go for Super Heavy tanks to maximize the bonus, and depending on the exact balance of the values one of them will always be what is best.

That is not true and not realistic. Firstly there does need to be a pay-off for pursuing armor in advance of your opponents AT capability however it doesn't need to be a very large all or nothing bonus. In WW2 it was not a case where you either could or could not pierce the opposing armor. As already mentioned there are a lot of different factors that go into the likelihood of a shot piercing and there would have to be a descent disparity between armor and AT weapons before that reached a point where a division could not deal with armor at all. If the disparity was small then it would be more difficult but not impossible - this should be reflected by a milder bonus/malus.

I see what you're getting at with a very granular armor vs. piercing system. That's not what I'm suggesting as I think it would just make the armor/piercing a shadow of hardness/breakthrough.

I like the current mechanic - I just think it needs a middle tier.

Historically it is also was the case that when your tanks had strong enough frontal armor to bounce all enemy AT munitions even at point blank range they did gain a massive tactical advantage and were able to operate in a completely different manner and tempo also strategically.

You're argument does not work. The problem with the current system is that it treats a minor armor advantage as if the armor now bounces all enemy munitions and thats not realistic/historic.

If there was a very small difference it might mean you can pierce at 300m instead of 500m. This does put you at a slight disadvantage but nowhere near the current malus that represents being unable to pierce at all.

We're not talking about a division with no AT - we're talking about instances where the armor/piercing are virtually equal.
 

KiwiNoob

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Not really.

In the last MP game I played as Germany, equipment loss had a huge immediate impact on armor and piercing levels. Units do not receive equipment and manpower instantly even when they are in perfect supply. And when they are out of supply, or in poor supply, they are either losing equipment to attrition, not receiving their quota, or both. It was very rare in the intense tank battles around Vitebsk or in Turkey that either side had full equipment quotas in their armored divisions. This kept things rather complicated the entire war.

It does but by long term I mean weeks/months over a front. Not so much the immediate battle being fought. Equipment loss within a battle is usually not significant enough to make a large difference to that specific battle.