HOI4 Piercing/Armor Reference Table

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Alex_brunius

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You're doing the 'perfect world' thing again where you're assuming everything happens at optimal speed and you're ignore many parts of the machine.

Exactly... that's why I wrote the following:

"or in more realistic conditions, terrain and speed within 10-15 minutes"

-_-

Still not really getting it. Now you're pitching a squad of men against 4 STUG's. This game is about divisions - 15,000 men.

No. If you read it again I did write some squads ( so around 50 men ).

Out of the 15000 men in a division at most half would be in actual rifle squads, and out of these 7500 men only one third would be allocated for offensives ( another third used for defense and the last third as reserves & rest/recovery ). This means that your front section covered by the STUGs would have around 100-300 men attacking it at the most, and depending on terrain or chokepoints all of them are not likely to be able to engage at once.

Also don't forget that the infantry division they are up against has a similar amount of men of their own defending, so it's not 4 STUGs vs 15000 men. It's more like 200men vs 4 STUG + 200men, and don't try to tell me that the STUGs won't give you a clear and decisive tactical advantage in that engagement!
 

Praetori

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I may be mistaken but as far as I'm aware placing a small handful of STUG's with an entire infantry division didn't cause the Allied infantry divisions to start doing half damage.
Luckily a single heavy battalion (36 AFVs) in-game doesn't rise hardness or defense that much.
What they do provide (as with other armor) is breakthrough but that's only viable during attack which makes sense (since it'll be the armor spearheading the attack and thus the armor getting shot at).
Any decently apt commander given a battalion of armor (of some form) to support his infantry would keep the majority of it as a mobile reserve close to a section where the ground conditions supports enemy armor. Listening-posts up front normally identified massing enemy armor long before they came into engagement-range and once in-sight, radio, phones and colored flares/smoke were used to communicate that fact to the rest of the formation. Experience of course came heavily into play and commanders who committed their reserves too soon could find other units struggling when the main push came elsewhere but fire-brigade use of armor was commonplace due to their high mobility and flexible and layered defense often meant that friendly armor had time to react. A single battalion could be expected to defend about a 1000 yards of front and supporting those with a platoon part of an SPG battalion was not uncommon practice (if available).
 

KiwiNoob

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Exactly... that's why I wrote the following:

"or in more realistic conditions, terrain and speed within 10-15 minutes"

Still not even remotely close to realistic.


and don't try to tell me that the STUGs won't give you a clear and decisive tactical advantage in that engagement!

The STUG's would provide an advantage in the local engagement but as there are numerous engagements occurring a small number of STUG's will not make a big difference in the larger picture of the battle.

I also love the way out of the 15,000 men only 100-300 make it to the front line yet the STUG's don't seem to suffer from the same low turnout.
 

KiwiNoob

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Luckily a single heavy battalion (36 AFVs) in-game doesn't rise hardness or defense that much.

The problem isn't the hardness or defense - it's the armor & piercing values that are the issue. Mainly because the bonus/malus is enormous and the current system weights the max value too highly.

A division should need more than a single battalion of tanks to give it substantial armor. Likewise, a division should need more than a support company of AT to negate armor.
 

daemonofdecay

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This back and forth has been fun to read, but seems to me you're both right - and wrong.

Yes, the idea of a handful of tanks providing a magical armored shield to the masses of infantry is absurd. Men don't become bulletproof just because there's a tank sitting a kilometer away.

But it's also absurd to imagine that a state of the art heavy tank would have its own armor riddled with holes just because it is serving in a division with infantry. Tank armor doesn't become thinner just because they're close to soft, fleshy bodies.

Abstracted combat means just that. Average or full armor, both can be described as utterly silly if you try and take an abstract representation of something and apply it to a reality-based hypothetical.
 

Praetori

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The problem isn't the hardness or defense - it's the armor & piercing values that are the issue. Mainly because the bonus/malus is enormous and the current system weights the max value too highly.

A division should need more than a single battalion of tanks to give it substantial armor. Likewise, a division should need more than a support company of AT to negate armor.

The piercing failure only deducts from the number of attacks made (if it's lower than armor). If you have a couple of tanks in a division you get a partial armor value, if the enemy still can't pierce that then it will negate half of the attacks made. You need to keep in memory that the overall hardness for armor/inf mixes are low and what that brings to the equation. Even if the number of attacks are lowered when you cannot pierce you're still using ~90%+ of the SA values in the base calculation when dealing damage to such a division so the final effects are not as great as the binary 50/50 because of the low hardness. An armored division with 250 HA and 800 SA that fails penetration against a HTD-reinforced-INF Div with 90% softness will still have a potential of 360 damage from SA and/or 125 from HA. The meaningful part is that SA stats are generally high even for semi-crappy infantry divisions compared to HA values and that the seemingly huge bonus for piercing/armor is diluted when hardness is low because SA comes into play and starts to kill those tanks.
 

KiwiNoob

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Armor advantage isn't just 50% less attacks. It's 50% less damage, 50% less org loss and double org damage done. It's a massive bonus.
 

Alex_brunius

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Still not even remotely close to realistic.

Care to explain why it's not "remotely close to realistic" to expect that a tank can move very short distances at speeds the same as a fit rifleman can sprint short distance (12.7km/h)?

Tanks were valued for their mobility, due to being able to move faster then infantry, not due to being able to move slower!!! (including Heavy tanks).

The reason tanks has tracks to begin with was to be able to negotiate terrain quickly and effortlessly at near maximum speed.

I also love the way out of the 15,000 men only 100-300 make it to the front line yet the STUG's don't seem to suffer from the same low turnout.

In my example over a thousand men made it to the frontline since the numbers I used was a smaller section of the front (where roughly a company of the full battalion of AFVs were located).

And there is a very simple and real reason for not all men being able to be on the front in active fighting, but the STUGs can.

Namely that the STUGs don't have other jobs like a majority of the 15000 men in the division does, and can focus on being near the front fighting.

You don't need STUGs cooking food for the other STUGs, you don't need STUGs driving trucks to haul around stuff for the other STUGs and you don't need STUGs doing paperwork administration for the other STUGs. ( I could go on but I guess you get the point by now ).


Casualty numbers also support this. If you study WW2 closer and start look into how many % of the AFVs a division with good supply of them lost and how many % of their men they lost over X time you are going to find things like 200% AFVs lost and 20% men lost, indicating that the AFVs took 10 times as high casualties (and as such could be expected to be on average 10 times heavier involved in the fighting).

Using the above ratios directly we can assume 1500 men working in combat with the 24 TDs => 250 men for each 4 TDs, which is within my numbers.


Armor advantage isn't just 50% less attacks. It's 50% less damage, 50% less org loss and double org damage done. It's a massive bonus.

The tooltip is a bit unclear and actually also erroneous in this case. While specified as 50% less damage and 50% less org loss taken, damage reference is only to strength here, which means it's just 50% reduction of both ORG and Strength damage taken, not 25% damage done to your org (which it can be interpreted as).

Looking into the defines.lua specification of the extra ORG damage done what it actually does is replace a damage dice of 1-4 (average 2.5) with a dice of 1-6 (average 3.5) instead. That is an increase of +40% damage done, not "double damage"... ( The 50% reference in the tooltip is probably an oversight since a d6 has 50% higher max value then a d4 ).


No one denies that armor is an important advantage here, but it's still not as important as many of the other advantages that can be achieved by numerical superiority or other situational things like for example:
  • up to +300% damage from attack values above BRK/DEF ( or up to -75% damage taken when your tanks increase your BRK )
  • -80% damage taken from SA for a Heavy tank division with high percentage tanks and thus high hardness
  • +300% higher SA for a division with alot of SPGs compared to one with a single TD
  • -80% damage done from attacking over rivers into bad terrain
  • +133% damage done by Veteran experience divisions compared to what green untrained divisions do
  • 3 vs 1 equal divisions can win taking only 11% as much damage each as in 1 vs 1
  • Forts reducing damage by up to -99%
  • Planning bonus can give over +100% damage on attack with certain doctrines

This is a game of many massive advantages, and armor is just one of many important modifiers. I have both defeated players divisions that I can't hope pierce, or won devastating victories with tank divisions my enemy can easily pierce in so many situations in this game in MP due to utilizing these other advantages ( partially or fully ).

In a recent MP game I played Germany using only Light tank divisions with 1936 model equipment that were easily pierced and won through flooding the Soviet player with 40 mobile divisions in 1940. His infantry being able to pierce them didn't help him at all when my tank divisions moved at 13km/h with great breakthrough, decent hardness and great soft attacks. After 2 months the tanks were in Moscow having 80-90% of the Soviet army encircled and doomed. I've never won any victory even close to as devastating as this when my tank divisions had armor advantage.

When it comes to SP I am sure that you have even more opportunities to use the other advantages then you do in MP as well ( just the same as with the armor advantage ).


Yes, the idea of a handful of tanks providing a magical armored shield to the masses of infantry is absurd. Men don't become bulletproof just because there's a tank sitting a kilometer away.

But it's also absurd to imagine that a state of the art heavy tank would have its own armor riddled with holes just because it is serving in a division with infantry. Tank armor doesn't become thinner just because they're close to soft, fleshy bodies.

This is a good summary of the situation. Tanks divisions already lose hardness when you add infantry to the divisions though, so IMO it doesn't make sense for them to lose significant amounts of their armor as well. This would just make unhistorical divisions with massed tanks and as little mobile infantry as you can get away with an even bigger requirement then it already is.
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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Care to explain why it's not "remotely close to realistic" to expect that a tank can move very short distances at speeds the same as a fit rifleman can sprint short distance (12.7km/h)?

The reason tanks has tracks to begin with was to be able to negotiate terrain quickly as effortlessly at near maximum speed.

Um... So you're saying tanks (and not just any tanks - you're talking about heavies) were able to negotiate difficult terrain, mud, hills, fences, buildings, marshes, walls, hedgerows at maximum speed...

And that infantry are ok to sprint (not even jog) several km, with their infantry gear, after spending a good part of the day fighting, not worrying about getting shot...

And there is a very simple and real reason for not all men being able to be on the front in active fighting, but the STUGs can.

Namely that the STUGs don't have other jobs like the 15000 men in the division does, and can focus on being near the front fighting.

You don't need STUGs cooking food for the other STUGs, you don't need STUGs driving trucks to haul around stuff for the other STUGs and you don't need STUGs doing paperwork administration for the other STUGs. ( I could go on but I guess you get the point by now ).

And you're TD crews don't need to eat, or sleep, or manage their supplies or do other administrative tasks like other people...

And your STUG's dont break down, get destroyed or need maintenance...

Casualty numbers also support this. If you study WW2 closer and start look into how many % of the AFVs a division with good supply of them lost and how many % of their men they lost over X time you are going to find things like 200% AFVs lost and 20% men lost, indicating that the AFVs took 10 times as high casualties (and as such could be expected to be on average 10 times heavier involved in the fighting).

And for some reason in your army it's more dangerous to be a tanker than regular infantry...


A lot of your conclusions seem to be based on dubious assumptions about how things work.

You do realize that in your heavy tank 'wall of death' deployment you're suggesting that when an attack begins in one spot all your other tanks should turn sideways and drive along the front line to get there as quickly as possible... like a good old fashion duck shoot.

Is this shortly followed up by the tanks charging towards the enemy backwards? You did mention earlier that you believed tanks used in extremely ineffective ways were still effective and this would certainly put that to the test.
 

KiwiNoob

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The tooltip is a bit unclear and actually also erroneous in this case. While specified as 50% less damage and 50% less org loss taken, damage reference is only to strength here, which means it's just 50% reduction of both ORG and Strength damage taken, not 25% damage done to your org (which it can be interpreted as).

Looking into the defines.lua specification of the extra ORG damage done what it actually does is replace a damage dice of 1-4 (average 2.5) with a dice of 1-6 (average 3.5) instead. That is an increase of +40% damage done, not "double damage"... ( The 50% reference in the tooltip is probably an oversight since a d6 has 50% higher max value then a d4 ).


No one denies that armor is an important advantage here, but it's still not as important as many of the other advantages that can be achieved by numerical superiority or other situational things like for example:
  • up to +300% damage from attack values above BRK/DEF ( or up to -75% damage taken when your tanks increase your BRK )
  • -80% damage taken from SA for a Heavy tank division with high percentage tanks and thus high hardness
  • +300% higher SA for a division with alot of SPGs compared to one with a single TD
  • -80% damage done from attacking over rivers into bad terrain
  • +133% damage done by Veteran experience divisions compared to what green untrained divisions do
  • 3 vs 1 equal divisions can win taking only 11% as much damage each as in 1 vs 1
  • Forts reducing damage by up to -99%
  • Planning bonus can give over +100% damage on attack with certain doctrines

This is a game of many massive advantages, and armor is just one of many important modifiers. I have both defeated players divisions that I can't hope pierce, or won devastating victories with tank divisions my enemy can easily pierce in so many situations in this game in MP due to utilizing these other advantages ( partially or fully ).

In a recent MP game I played Germany using only Light tank divisions with 1936 model equipment that were easily pierced and won through flooding the Soviet player with 40 mobile divisions in 1940. His infantry being able to pierce them didn't help him at all when my tank divisions moved at 13km/h with great breakthrough, decent hardness and great soft attacks. After 2 months the tanks were in Moscow having 80-90% of the Soviet army encircled and doomed. I've never won any victory even close to as devastating as this when my tank divisions had armor advantage.

No-one thinks it's 25% damage done to ORG. That's not what the tooltip says and not what was posted either.

That is interesting info about the defines (you should probably bug report that) but theres not much difference between -50/-50/+50 and -50/-50/+40 in the context of this discussion.

That is a very long list of things that don't make any difference. Why? Because you can combine any of them with the armor advantage.

Nice anecdote but I'm not sure why rolling a player with sub-par infantry divisions who wasn't managing them very well (if you were encircling large parts of his army) helps the discussion. I'm not saying armor divisions are completely useless or pointless just that the armor/piercing mechanic isn't very good and can be easily gamed.
 

Alex_brunius

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Um... So you're saying tanks (and not just any tanks - you're talking about heavies) were able to negotiate difficult terrain, mud, hills, fences, buildings, marshes, walls, hedgerows at maximum speed...

No, repeating myself for the third time I didn't say that. Reading comprehension apparently isn't your strong side...


And that infantry are ok to sprint (not even jog) several km, with their infantry gear, after spending a good part of the day fighting, not worrying about getting shot...

You'd be surprised what drugs and fear of death can do for running fast... even if they don't actually need to even jog to be able to move faster then the speed you claim heavy tanks moved at. 3km would not be an issue for any infantryman even in full gear to reach within the "an hour" you stated it would take the tanks to do it. In fact using a fast walking speed of 5km/h it would take the infantry just 36 minutes to move 3km...

So to summarize moving the distance with heavy tanks would take between 5-15min depending on conditions, while moving with infantry would take between 20-45 min depending on conditions. Can you at least agree with me that you also think that Heavy Tanks are faster then infantry?

And you're TD crews don't need to eat, or sleep, or manage their supplies or do other administrative tasks like other people...

The TD crews are already part of the divisions 15000 men. Other men manage their supply, deliver ammo and fuel to them, administer stuff for them and assist to maintain them and such ( Other men which are not fighting on the front and detract from how many riflemen can support the tanks in combat ;) ).

All men regardless of jobs need to eat and sleep just as much so it isn't a factor at all here, I'm talking about what they do on their active job time besides that...
For most of the 15000 men in a division it's not fighting despite what hollywood movies will have you believe, it's boring day to day stuff to make the small community that a division is run and work smoothly.


And for some reason in your army it's more dangerous to be a tanker than regular infantry...

Yes, WAY more dangerous. Same as in the real army. In some US divisions up to 500% of their full tank strength were knocked out when advancing from D-Day until V-Day against Germany, while in the overall US armed forces of the 16.35 million that served 1.2 million were casualties (7.4%) over the course of the entire war. Even if we assume 80% of all tankers can escape the destruction of their vehicles unharmed it would still be over 40 times more dangerous then the average job in the armed forces.

It's not much different in other armies, being a tanker was at easily over 10 times more dangerous job then the average army job.

in your heavy tank 'wall of death' deployment you're suggesting
Sorry? Your the one who suggested that since the tanks would be evenly spread out along the front instead of being deployed in historical fashion, they couldn't be effective or help out anywhere, not me, remember?

Here is your quote:

IRL a small handful of tanks spread over 40km would make very, very little difference.
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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I think you need to re-check your facts. Being a tanker was far, far safer than being regular infantry.
 

FrancescoT

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Being a tanker was far, far safer than being regular infantry.

Far more protected maybe, far safer probably not when you are a moving threat and in the top 3 priority targets for the enemy in a given battlefield..
 

Alex_brunius

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I think you need to re-check your facts. Being a tanker was far, far safer than being regular infantry.

I just did. They state that 17.6 percent of all US Tank Crews were casualties ( compared to the total in the armed forces of 7.4% ).

So while not quite as bad as I remember it's still pretty bad ( around 2.4 times worse ).

Being a rifleman was pretty bad as well (worse then the armed forces average for sure), but that's besides the topic since no division consisted of 100% riflemen!
 

KiwiNoob

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A quick google produces nothing but results that dis-agree with you. And rightly so, suggesting that being inside an armored box with lots of guns is more dangerous than running around with nothing but your skin for protection is a bit silly.

Armor divisions had very low casualty rates (in the grand scheme of things). Even when a tank was destroyed most of the crew survived (average was 1 dead, 1 wounded). The majority of crew deaths occurred when the crew was outside of their tank.

It's the WW2 equivalent of saying that in the medieval days it was more dangerous to be a mounted knight with armor than a peasant on the front row.
 

Alex_brunius

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A quick google produces nothing but results that dis-agree with you.

Maybe you shouldn't use quick google searches to form you opinion about things then?

Quick google searches also can prove that the earth is flat ( 4 out of the 5 top hits on my google search "Is the Earth flat?" deals with flat earth or how to prove the earth is flat ).

Armor divisions had very low casualty rates (in the grand scheme of things). Even when a tank was destroyed most of the crew survived (average was 1 dead, 1 wounded). The majority of crew deaths occurred when the crew was outside of their tank.

The crew inside a tank was 3-5 normally, and the 1 dead + 1 wounded per tank loss is from very late war in 45 when the allies had added wet rack ammo. Before that it was 1 dead + 2 wounded on average per tank loss, which considering the Shermans crew was 5 means 60% casualties!! on loss of vehicle... ( even 1+1 is 40% which is seriously brutal ).

Over 100'000 tanks were produced globally and at the end of the war only around 20'000 of them remained. Where do you think the other tanks ended up and what do you think happened to their crews?

Maybe a few Book titles with more proper research and first hand accounts behind them then "a quick google search" has can help you answer that question?

Death by Design
Death Traps
Panzer Sherman Killers
The Last Panther

Many Tank aces existed, but few survived the war on any side, the odds were against them...


Armor divisions had very low casualty rates (in the grand scheme of things).

So it seems that the presence of tanks actually reduced the casualties that the tank divisions infantry took as well... hmm... hmm... Isn't that exactly what the HoI4 armor value does but you have been arguing that it shouldn't be doing if you have a few battalion(s) of tanks covering alot more infantry? (as was the case in real Armor divisions) ;)
 
Last edited:

KiwiNoob

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So it seems that the presence of tanks actually reduced the casualties that the tank divisions infantry took as well... hmm... hmm... Isn't that exactly what the HoI4 armor value does but you have been arguing that it shouldn't be doing? ;)

That might be what you're arguing about but that's not even close to the actual topic or anything anyone has said up to now.

Though my previous wording should have read battalion or company, not division.


Maybe you shouldn't use quick google searches to form you opinion about things then?

Quick google searches also can prove that the earth is flat ( 4 out of the 5 top hits on my google search "Is the Earth flat?" deals with flat earth or how to prove the earth is flat).

The crew inside a tank was 3-5 normally, and the 1 dead + 1 wounded per tank loss is from very late war in 45 when the allies had added wet rack ammo. Before that it was 1 dead + 2 wounded on average per tank loss, which considering the Shermans crew was 5 means 60% casualties!! on loss of vehicle... ( even 1+1 is 40% which is seriously brutal ).

This is confusing. You chide me for quick google searches and then in the very next paragraph you use quotes from those searches. Now I don't know what to believe. Are they ok or not?


The crew inside a tank was 3-5 normally, and the 1 dead + 1 wounded per tank loss is from very late war in 45 when the allies had added wet rack ammo. Before that it was 1 dead + 2 wounded on average per tank loss, which considering the Shermans crew was 5 means 60% casualties!! on loss of vehicle... ( even 1+1 is 40% which is seriously brutal ).

Over 100'000 tanks were produced globally and at the end of the war only around 20000 of them remained. Where do you think the other tanks ended up and what do you think happened to their crews?

For someone who throws an awful lot of numbers and percentages out you don't seem to have a very good grasp on how they work. All that shows is that the casualty rate of the crew for an individual, early model Sherman when destroyed was ~60%..... Cool, but that doesn't help back up your fanciful numbers in any way.

Guess what - the average casualty rate of an individual soldier that gets shot is almost 100%.

If you want to work out the (rough) casualty rates you take the total number of casualties, divide it by the total number of people that served and times it by 100.

There is no place for individual tanks, anecdotes, strange comments about tank aces or looking at tank production numbers. It's just casualty / total * 100

When you do that, not surprisingly, a lower % of tankers were killed/injured than infantry.
 

Alex_brunius

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This is confusing. You chide me for quick google searches and then in the very next paragraph you use quotes from those searches. Now I don't know what to believe. Are they ok or not?

It was some time since I read it, but I'm pretty sure the actual source of those numbers is not your "google searches" but the book that I linked written by Belton Cooper.

He had the ungrateful job of cleaning out the human remains of the knocked out allied tanks and trying to repair them and put them back to service, so he had a pretty good idea about the subject.


Quotes from google or wikipedia are fine when you know they come from a proper source that can be trusted, and when you know in what context they are relevant.
 

Secret Master

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Armor advantage isn't just 50% less attacks. It's 50% less damage, 50% less org loss and double org damage done. It's a massive bonus.

The armor advantage is not insurmountable by any mans. It's also not the end all, be all, of land combat. As we learned last week in MP, piercing enemy tanks matters very little if the enemy's mobile forces outmaneuver and overrun infantry who are moving slower due to lack of air superiority.

Then there was the time I seized Gibraltar (with level 10 forts) using German armor and infantry. It took over three weeks, and I pulled the tanks back after suffering some losses to let the infantry do the job. Despite having far more armor than the defending British could pierce, the panzers were basically doing no damage to the defenders while taking losses themselves. The only way I was inflicting damage was via ground attack. So, I just put the infantry divisions into combat to allow ground attack mission to continue. The land forces, panzer or infantry, were basically contributing only 1-2% of the total damage on the defending force.

Then there's the MP game where I didn't bother to put any AT or TDs in my infantry divisions as Germany. Not a single one. I used all of my tungsten to build a ton of Panthers that I concentrated in panzer divisions. I didn't even care if my infantry divisions could pierce, because the extra IC and tungsten devoted to tanks meant more panzer divisions that could counter-attack and wipe out any expected Soviet offensives. I don't even think my opponents noticed or cared that I had not bothered putting AT or TD in my infantry formations.

Armor/piercing values are one way to optimize land warfare, but it's certainly not the only one. Speed is really important, as is soft attack. And doctrines are an important factor.

  • up to +300% damage from attack values above BRK/DEF ( or up to -75% damage taken when your tanks increase your BRK )
  • -80% damage taken from SA for a Heavy tank division with high percentage tanks and thus high hardness
  • +300% higher SA for a division with alot of SPGs compared to one with a single TD
  • -80% damage done from attacking over rivers into bad terrain
  • +133% damage done by Veteran experience divisions compared to what green untrained divisions do
  • 3 vs 1 equal divisions can win taking only 11% as much damage each as in 1 vs 1
  • Forts reducing damage by up to -99%
  • Planning bonus can give over +100% damage on attack with certain doctrines

I was going to mention those, but I think I'll add tactics selection in combat (damn you close quarters!) and air superiority.
 

KiwiNoob

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The armor advantage is not insurmountable by any mans. It's also not the end all, be all, of land combat. As we learned last week in MP, piercing enemy tanks matters very little if the enemy's mobile forces outmaneuver and overrun infantry who are moving slower due to lack of air superiority.

No - it's certainly not insurmountable but it is a really big deal. Especially as it represents instant win vs AI (Of which 85% of games are played).

Making it binary instead of a scaling bonus/malus is a bad idea because you get into silly situations where 0.5 armor or 0.5 piercing makes an enormous difference in combat effectiveness.

The current system also creates situations where foot Infantry divisions can easily achieve the armor bonus.

Likewise - the combat effectiveness of full LARM/ARM/MEC divisions lose a big advantage that they really should have because a division has a support AT company - even though that amount of guns would make virtually no difference IRL. (A US infantry division had ~100 because it became obvious very early in the war AT was so important)

People should need to actually put effort into AT if they're going to be facing armor divisions.