HOI4 Mod - Historical Vehicle Stats

[Ownage]

Hello, I am interested in getting into modmaking. This is my first project so all help is good help. I am completely fresh in this so I barely have any know-how to produce this so the first itterations might need some tuning
Every tip is appreciated.

As we probably all know, the stats of tanks etc are all the same but with each production company.
I'd like to change that.
My plan is to add historical accuracy to the tanks, aircraft and ships and modify them with the historical stats, manufactory time and cost. Also to make the game more varied for each major nation.
I plan to have 2 versions.
1 version of full historical accuracy, even though this might make the game unbalanced. This one is for the hardcore roleplaying historians who all crave historical stats.
The second version is to have changes that are more historical but not make the game too unbalanced.
My guess is that this mod wouldn't be too hard to make changes to but requires alot of balance testing.

As I've said, any help is appreciated.
If I manage to complete this mod, I'll gladly incorporate the mod into others more advanced.

 

[Bleuhelmet]

Nobody even replies.
Well I agree. I was actually thinking about this myself even though I also posses no modding skills. The second option is probably the better choice since it respects the game mechanics. BICE went along the path of complete historical accuracy and basically buckled under its own weight (if you ask me).

 

[Orlunu]

How do you plan to do that? It's not like the vehicles actually had Soft Attack stats or the like IRL. The damage output of one plane type compared to another depended entirely on what they're fighting, and so on. The game can't model that.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

How exactly would you handle varients?

 

[Ownage]

How do you plan to do that? It's not like the vehicles actually had Soft Attack stats or the like IRL. The damage output of one plane type compared to another depended entirely on what they're fighting, and so on. The game can't model that.

Infact you can.
For example; if you have good HE rounds for said vehicle that would impact the soft attack or if you have alot of machineguns that would also impact it.
Hard attack would be the main AP rounds and their said penetration, for example; a Tiger has really good hard attack but a M3 Lee has a very nice soft attack. This is due to the famous penetration of the 88mm on the Tiger and the 75mm in the M3 Lee which also was famous but for its HE rounds.
It could be modeled, not perhaps so fully as one would like but it's do-able.
To your point about the aircraft: I'd have to give them all general stats, just like they have right now but they all have different stats. I'm not adding stats or removing them, I'm simply changing them for more variety and historical accuracy (to the degree that's possible within the game).

How exactly would you handle varients?

Varients would be kind of hard to balance, but the different varients all have stat variations right?
I'll just look at the historical stats of said varients that were produced and model them statswise.
for the others, I'll have to get feedback from testing and ideas but It should (with the right know-how) be do-able.

Nobody even replies.
Well I agree. I was actually thinking about this myself even though I also posses no modding skills. The second option is probably the better choice since it respects the game mechanics. BICE went along the path of complete historical accuracy and basically buckled under its own weight (if you ask me).

I will set out to do both as I think if I do the strictly historical one aswell, people could use my work to put into their larger mod (a mod like BICE).
But the strictly historical one will be the easy one since the other one will require alot more balancing.

 

[agus92]

Infact you can.
For example; if you have good HE rounds for said vehicle that would impact the soft attack or if you have alot of machineguns that would also impact it.
Hard attack would be the main AP rounds and their said penetration, for example; a Tiger has really good hard attack but a M3 Lee has a very nice soft attack. This is due to the famous penetration of the 88mm on the Tiger and the 75mm in the M3 Lee which also was famous but for its HE rounds.
It could be modeled, not perhaps so fully as one would like but it's do-able.
To your point about the aircraft: I'd have to give them all general stats, just like they have right now but they all have different stats. I'm not adding stats or removing them, I'm simply changing them for more variety and historical accuracy (to the degree that's possible within the game).



Varients would be kind of hard to balance, but the different varients all have stat variations right?
I'll just look at the historical stats of said varients that were produced and model them statswise.
for the others, I'll have to get feedback from testing and ideas but It should (with the right know-how) be do-able.




I will set out to do both as I think if I do the strictly historical one aswell, people could use my work to put into their larger mod (a mod like BICE).
But the strictly historical one will be the easy one since the other one will require alot more balancing.

Well, doing the second once the historical is complete should decrease the time needed.

 

[Orlunu]

Infact you can.
For example; if you have good HE rounds for said vehicle that would impact the soft attack or if you have alot of machineguns that would also impact it.
Hard attack would be the main AP rounds and their said penetration, for example; a Tiger has really good hard attack but a M3 Lee has a very nice soft attack. This is due to the famous penetration of the 88mm on the Tiger and the 75mm in the M3 Lee which also was famous but for its HE rounds.

To your point about the aircraft: I'd have to give them all general stats, just like they have right now but they all have different stats. I'm not adding stats or removing them, I'm simply changing them for more variety and historical accuracy (to the degree that's possible within the game).

That's a lot vaguer and woolier than what I thought you meant, but much more possible. I assume that you're going to use the first type of equipment for each? I.e. not allow the tanks which mounted 6pdrs to use APDS, no HEAT for the Japanese infantry support tanks, and so on?

Still, I think you'll find it impossible to correctly compare a lot of vehicles to others.

 

[agus92]

That's a lot vaguer and woolier than what I thought you meant, but much more possible. I assume that you're going to use the first type of equipment for each? I.e. not allow the tanks which mounted 6pdrs to use APDS, no HEAT for the Japanese infantry support tanks, and so on?

Still, I think you'll find it impossible to correctly compare a lot of vehicles to others.

It's a titanic job research-wise, but I think it's doable following objective criteria like penetration, horsepower, max speed, explosive mass for HE and such...

Other factors that are less objective (qualities, radios and such) such be implemented as modifiers (since that can be actively influenced by player).

 

[Orlunu]

It's a titanic job research-wise, but I think it's doable following objective criteria like penetration, horsepower, max speed, explosive mass for HE and such...

Penetration comparison? Against low-hardness RHA or high-hardness FHA? Against sloped or normal plates? Varying range or varying thickness? At what value for the non-varied stat? How do we compare between countries with different definitions of penetration?

Trust me, I've run these comparisons before, they're a lot more complicated than "Gun A has 1.2 times the penetration of gun B". There's a reason that US M2 AP rounds couldn't penetrate 8mm of Japanese tank armour at ranges they were rated to >19mm for, but their tanks' HE rounds massively over performed against their rating against that same armour.

Horsepower is fairly clear, max speed is massively dependant, burst effect of anti-infantry shells can be hilariously far from a straight up HE comparison, yadda yadda yadda

These values depend on things that aren't modelled, and can't be modelled, in game.

 

[agus92]

Penetration comparison? Against low-hardness RHA or high-hardness FHA? Against sloped or normal plates? Varying range or varying thickness? At what value for the non-varied stat? How do we compare between countries with different definitions of penetration?

Trust me, I've run these comparisons before, they're a lot more complicated than "Gun A has 1.2 times the penetration of gun B". There's a reason that US M2 AP rounds couldn't penetrate 8mm of Japanese tank armour at ranges they were rated to >19mm for, but their tanks' HE rounds massively over performed against their rating against that same armour.

Horsepower is fairly clear, max speed is massively dependant, burst effect of anti-infantry shells can be hilariously far from a straight up HE comparison, yadda yadda yadda

These values depend on things that aren't modelled, and can't be modelled, in game.

Penetration values are normalized, as far as I know.

But yeah, I know that raw criteria in tanks is utter garbage, that's why I said that a second iteration would be needed to apply different modifiers to determine with historical hindsight, that could be dynamic, dependant if player decisions. Even then, we would be afar from reality, but it would be modelled far better.

 

[Orlunu]

Penetration values are normalized, as far as I know.

But yeah, I know that raw criteria in tanks is utter garbage, that's why I said that a second iteration would be needed to apply different modifiers to determine with historical hindsight, that could be dynamic, dependant if player decisions. Even then, we would be afar from reality, but we would model it far better.

Germany used a 30 degree angle in their standard tests. Actually, measuring against angled plates was probably the more common method, but it varied between countries and, sometimes, service branches.

It's not so much that the raw data is garbage, it's that the relevant values would actually be completely different in different situations, and that can't be modelled.

Heh, I'm fine for you to try, and for you to have fun playing this mod, I guess I'm just too anal about these things and it'd upset me.

 

[Ownage]

Well, doing the second once the historical is complete should decrease the time needed.

This is actually what I plan to do.

Germany used a 30 degree angle in their standard tests. Actually, measuring against angled plates was probably the more common method, but it varied between countries and, sometimes, service branches.

It's not so much that the raw data is garbage, it's that the relevant values would actually be completely different in different situations, and that can't be modelled.

Heh, I'm fine for you to try, and for you to have fun playing this mod, I guess I'm just too anal about these things and it'd upset me.

I know that it's alot deeper than it's possible to model in the limitations of the HOI engine.
I will have to go to alot of just straight up military classifications even tho these might be kind of skewed. If the records state 50mms of penetration, and If I don't find anything that contests that which is from a probable source I won't have choice but to look at those records.
I appreciate your points and I do realise that this is not for everyone.

 

[JamesJameson]

I think it would be a great learning experience:
Research, mod, research, mod, tweak.
Show what you have done so far and how you plan it to work, then show the public and ask for people to join in.
Everyone has already pointed out that putting stats into "historical accurate" conditions, and have them work as they did historically is impossible. With that said, it sound like what you want is to make a bunch of different equipment modified to what you believe is historical. Which is great, but things like this are impossible to do tell you play the game, and impossible to start tell the game is available. Given these circumstances, if I was you I would wait tell the game comes out, mod it to a point where you can show the public what your doing, then recruit people. If not, you may find all the research you did prior to release becomes obsolete and/or unusable.

Good luck to you !

 

[Axe99]

Sorry, missed this thread earlier. I'm putting a bunch of naval data together, if that helps, and you're welcome to it (it's in a spreadsheet, PM me if you want a link). Nowhere near finished - the naval data alone is a looooong job, and I've got good sources that make it easy to put together. I was going to try something similar for naval vessels, but likely only broadly accurate. Different guns and ammo had relatively different effectiveness even at the same calibre, so there's a fair bit to getting everything squared away.

The mod itself isn't where the work is (particularly if you don't add any new units), but there's a stack of research required for the relative effectiveness of things. Good luck .

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Doesn't everyone share the same tech tree with differences only in the interface? (name, icon) At least that's how it worked in other games.

 

[Mitsugi]

Germany used a 30 degree angle in their standard tests. Actually, measuring against angled plates was probably the more common method, but it varied between countries and, sometimes, service branches.

And it's also metal quality, what counted as penetration (50% of shots at a given range penetrating was the usual "effective range", the Soviets required 80%), etc.

For example, I've seen test photos of a Tiger 2 hit by a Soviet 122mm HE shell, as the first shot. "No penetration", but several welds failed and the spalling was so heavy that the hull crew absolutely would have died, not to mention that it caught fire. The third shot was with 122mm AP, and while it bounced, it burst all the remaining welds holding the glacis plate on and sent more spall into the tank. A penetration calculator says "cannot penetrate at that range", RL either hit would have KOed the tank pretty thoroughly.

 

[Axe99]

Doesn't everyone share the same tech tree with differences only in the interface? (name, icon) At least that's how it worked in other games.

Aye, but you could do things like have nation-specific events that fired when they researched a tech, unlocking a variant model (I'm not 100% sure this would be possible, but I think it's the kind of thing that's fairly likely to be possible). Not what I plan to do m'self, but I'd bet it was possible.

 

[agus92]

Doesn't everyone share the same tech tree with differences only in the interface? (name, icon) At least that's how it worked in other games.

"-Do the carrier based versions of the planes have different stats/ values/ (profiles), or are they at least moddable? Means have they a different unit file? (Same for tanks)
-Also do the TD/Sp-Arty/ AA variants of tanks have different unit files?"

I think this may have been answered, but just to be sure... Yes they have a different profile and you can add, remove or change them as you please.

They are talking about planes, welp, apply that to tanks

 

[SchwarzKatze]

They are talking about planes, welp, apply that to tanks

He's talking about variant classes, not different nations.

 

[agus92]

He's talking about variant classes, not different nations.

Ah sorry, I misunderstood your post then. I didn't realized/remembered that every nation appears to use the same layout.

I would like to get confirmation on that, and I think that someone may have more intel than us: @Vonboe , do you know if the tank/plane tech trees are nation specific or general?